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Old 07-11-2014, 02:47 AM
 
Location: US
29,414 posts, read 16,445,279 times
Reputation: 1967

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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
One item that some Christians point to to prove the bible's prophetic accuracy, is the 1948 creation of the state of Israel. They point to a myriad of biblical prophecies that speak of the Jews returning from captivity/exile (in modern times) as solid, concrete proof that the bible is the perfect word of god. I once touted such a position and believed it was irrefutable proof.

It was not until just a few years ago, about 5 years into my de-conversion, did it hit me that ALL of the so-called prophecies are found ONLY in the Old Testament. Not one New Testament writer utters a mention of any Jewish return to their homeland in some distant future. I then realized that the Old Testament writings concerning a Jewish return to their homeland concerned their return from their exile in Babylon and other places where they were scattered in THAT ancient world. By the New Testament time when the nation was pretty much re-established primarily as Judea and Galilee, there was no reason to predict anything. The fulfillment prophecies of the OT regarding a Jewish return to their ancient land had already taken place and was history.

Added to this was the idea that AFTER the Jewish return, it appears that some believed that it was now time for god to punish Israel's enemies for beating up on them which led to a lot of apocalyptic language culminating in the New Testament apocalyptic diatribes such as those found in the book of Revelation.

What say ye?
Well, there is the concept of PRDS OR PARDES, when reading scripture...
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Old 07-11-2014, 03:01 AM
 
Location: US
29,414 posts, read 16,445,279 times
Reputation: 1967
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
One item that some Christians point to to prove the bible's prophetic accuracy, is the 1948 creation of the state of Israel. They point to a myriad of biblical prophecies that speak of the Jews returning from captivity/exile (in modern times) as solid, concrete proof that the bible is the perfect word of god. I once touted such a position and believed it was irrefutable proof.

It was not until just a few years ago, about 5 years into my de-conversion, did it hit me that ALL of the so-called prophecies are found ONLY in the Old Testament. Not one New Testament writer utters a mention of any Jewish return to their homeland in some distant future. I then realized that the Old Testament writings concerning a Jewish return to their homeland concerned their return from their exile in Babylon and other places where they were scattered in THAT ancient world. By the New Testament time when the nation was pretty much re-established primarily as Judea and Galilee, there was no reason to predict anything. The fulfillment prophecies of the OT regarding a Jewish return to their ancient land had already taken place and was history.

Added to this was the idea that AFTER the Jewish return, it appears that some believed that it was now time for god to punish Israel's enemies for beating up on them which led to a lot of apocalyptic language culminating in the New Testament apocalyptic diatribes such as those found in the book of Revelation.

What say ye?
The state of Israel is different from the Land of Israel...
http://www.Pray4Zion.org/images/grap...gaveisrael.jpg
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Old 07-11-2014, 03:07 AM
 
Location: US
29,414 posts, read 16,445,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
We Jews are all still in exile. We pray for a return to the land.
What are you waiting for?...Pack-up and go....
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Old 07-11-2014, 05:55 AM
 
4,433 posts, read 3,630,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
What are you waiting for?...Pack-up and go....
I'm waiting for the exile to end before I return. We're still in exile. I'm waiting for a Jewiah state to be established in the land of Israel - not a secular Zionist state.
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Old 07-11-2014, 12:41 PM
 
34,387 posts, read 35,092,030 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
I'm waiting for the exile to end before I return. We're still in exile. I'm waiting for a Jewiah state to be established in the land of Israel - not a secular Zionist state.
Isn't a mitzvah to live in the land of Israel whether or not there is a Jewish government in the area?
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Old 07-11-2014, 04:41 PM
 
4,433 posts, read 3,630,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
Isn't a mitzvah to live in the land of Israel whether or not there is a Jewish government in the area?
It's more complex than that. In general, yes, but in reality Jews should seek guidance from a qualified Rav if they intend to make Aliya.

Have a great Shabbos.
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Old 07-12-2014, 04:25 AM
 
Location: US
29,414 posts, read 16,445,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
I'm waiting for the exile to end before I return. We're still in exile. I'm waiting for a Jewiah state to be established in the land of Israel - not a secular Zionist state.
You do know the land of Israel is from the Nile to the Euphrates, don't you?...
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Old 07-12-2014, 08:23 PM
 
Location: No
467 posts, read 275,360 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
You do know the land of Israel is from the Nile to the Euphrates, don't you?...
Yes, I believe you can get that from at least one place in the Torah. I'm pretty sure that there are other opinions/interpretations, also.

BTW, Yasser Arafat once claimed that the two blue lines in the Israeli flag stood for those two rivers. I often tell people that I agree with Arafat on the proper borders of Eretz Yisroel, and then inform them of his statement on the flag.
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Old 07-13-2014, 09:20 AM
 
34,387 posts, read 35,092,030 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
You do know the land of Israel is from the Nile to the Euphrates, don't you?...
That is why religious Jewish settlers feel it is their right to live in the West Bank area.
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Old 07-13-2014, 04:46 PM
 
446 posts, read 419,307 times
Reputation: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
One item that some Christians point to to prove the bible's prophetic accuracy, is the 1948 creation of the state of Israel. They point to a myriad of biblical prophecies that speak of the Jews returning from captivity/exile (in modern times) as solid, concrete proof that the bible is the perfect word of god. I once touted such a position and believed it was irrefutable proof.

It was not until just a few years ago, about 5 years into my de-conversion, did it hit me that ALL of the so-called prophecies are found ONLY in the Old Testament. Not one New Testament writer utters a mention of any Jewish return to their homeland in some distant future. I then realized that the Old Testament writings concerning a Jewish return to their homeland concerned their return from their exile in Babylon and other places where they were scattered in THAT ancient world. By the New Testament time when the nation was pretty much re-established primarily as Judea and Galilee, there was no reason to predict anything. The fulfillment prophecies of the OT regarding a Jewish return to their ancient land had already taken place and was history.

Added to this was the idea that AFTER the Jewish return, it appears that some believed that it was now time for god to punish Israel's enemies for beating up on them which led to a lot of apocalyptic language culminating in the New Testament apocalyptic diatribes such as those found in the book of Revelation.

What say ye?

lol what prophecy?

This is what the good ole Youtube says.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIT9sLz29iQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMQ9C6vni0w
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