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Thank you for the question, and thank you for your later link to Dennis Prager, who does a fairly good job (better than I could do) on this difficult question. You will not easily improve on Prager's answer.
I do NOT believe that it goes back to Bolshevik Russia, even though a ridiculous number of Jews were Communists both here and in Russia. The reason I say that is that I am pretty sure that most Ashkenazic Jews (the worst offenders) were here in the US of A before even the Russian revolution, let alone the subsequent Bolshevik takeover. I think that they couldn't have brought Commie ideas here, because those ideas mostly weren't around when the majority of Jews came here. However, I could have my dates wrong on when Commie ideas became popular in Europe and Russia, and assimilationist Jews were certainly not latecomers to any such movement.
In my own family, I believe that my paternal grandfather was not a leftist. My father certainly was, pretty much in reaction to the economic events of the late twenties and early thirties. So his reactions, and probably those of many Jews, weren't much different from those of SOME non-Jews. Both rosends and Prager explain this to some extent.
Best wishes in your attempt to learn more about this phenomenon which has always interested me, partly because I have never learned a definitive answer. Probably there are many answers that are at least partially correct.
Thank you for your concise response. I am trying to genuinely learn about the social aspects of this element of the Jewish community. A good friend of mine, and flying buddy (also my attorney) is a politically conservative, Republican Jew, as is his brother. His sister is the extreme opposite, lives in San Fran, etc. We also have mutual Jewish friends from Israel that occasionally come to the U.S. for vacations, and to fly with us. They are much more conservative than many American Jews it seems, and often comment on that fact.
I listen to Dennis Prager's radio show from time to time, and I think he does a pretty good job as he is a Jew, and a religious scholar.
Laws such as these apply to me and everyone else only as we choose.
I don't agree. The law in the US against murder applies to you whether or not you want it to apply to you and you cannot claim to be an American and then, as your first act, deny the authority of American law to determine who is an American.
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Originally Posted by LearnMe
I am Jewish (or not) only to whatever extent I choose to be,
Except that that is, in one breath saying "I am subject to Jewish law, but not to the Jewish law about what it is to be Jewish." Saying one is "Jewish" is a statement of alignment with a religion and all that goes with it.
And yet here you are, still posting as if you don't get it.
I am still here, yes, and I am still posting just like you, but what I get and what I don't get seems to be what you are struggling to understand or accept. I've tried to explain in a fair manner, but you're having none of it, and this too I can accept and understand just like I do many an opinion different from mine. We just don't agree is all. No need to get upset about this rather common dynamic that has been driving wedges between men through the ages. Right?
Especially in a safe environment like this one! Not like we're needing to take up arms and deal with any sort of violence between us like the Israelis and Palestinians are having to endure for what seems like forever now, because of these fundamental differences of opinion just for starters. One of the many advantages of living here in America BTW, whether we agree or not, whether we are Jewish or not. Heck, we need not even bother reading let alone responding to one another's posts. Fair?
One thing I can assure you. Leftist ideals are antithetical in many cases to Torah ideals (aborting unborn babies for convenience, supporting Obama and Carter’s hatred of Israel, etc).
I object your honor!
I am a male who doesn't know anyone who has had an abortion (that I know of), but I support a woman's right to decide what she will do in the case of an unwanted pregnancy. I think it a bit callous to describe the emotion a woman endures over this issue as "for convenience." I also think this very heavy and unfair rhetoric regarding Obama and/or Carter "hatred of Israel."
Only thing you seem to be "assuring" is more reason for people to misunderstand one another at best, fight all the more over those misunderstandings at worst. To keep it civil, I will simply leave it at that...
I don't agree. The law in the US against murder applies to you whether or not you want it to apply to you and you cannot claim to be an American and then, as your first act, deny the authority of American law to determine who is an American.
Except that that is, in one breath saying "I am subject to Jewish law, but not to the Jewish law about what it is to be Jewish." Saying one is "Jewish" is a statement of alignment with a religion and all that goes with it.
Might be we're "mixing apples and oranges" a bit here...
One thing are the laws agreed upon as a society, to maintain order, prevent crime, promote commerce, etc. Those laws and their source of origin are fairly well understand and commonly accepted without the sort of controversy surrounding religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam. We can easily agree about this. Right?
Even still, however, though there are laws against murder, for example, and though those laws will be applied to all of us in similar fashion, anyone can decide even laws against murder don't apply to them. Anyone can decide not to abide by any laws in any case. Again we all have that freedom to choose, and by what criteria we choose begins to define what we will decide for ourselves in these regards.
Take as another example the laws prohibiting the consumption of alcohol during the Prohibition Era. The law applied to everyone, yes, but whether one chose to accept and/or abide by the law..., that was a matter of choice (and one that many people chose regardless the law).
Also we can agree that if someone CHOOSES an "alignment with a religion and all that goes with it," they are free to choose and believe accordingly. The story of Jim Jones demonstrates just how true that can be...
Again what fascinates me is how different we all choose despite our shared experience as humans, how and why we all choose so differently even though there is only one ultimate truth in these regards for all of us; whether there is a God, the essence of who and what we are, why we're here.
We don't all agree and we can't all be right, but there is most definitely a right and wrong answer to all these questions going back to our common beginnings...
One thing are the laws agreed upon as a society, to maintain order, prevent crime, promote commerce, etc. Those laws and their source of origin are fairly well understand and commonly accepted without the sort of controversy surrounding religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam. We can easily agree about this. Right?
Nope. Judaism has laws designed specifically to create a society. Its laws are exactly what you seem to say is somehow separate from religious law. Secular law as determined by man is rife with all sorts of controversy (gun laws, psych defenses, community standards...). Religious law, with an unambiguous source sets up a unified society with order, crime prevention and commerce laws.
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Originally Posted by LearnMe
anyone can decide even laws against murder don't apply to them.
and be wrong, I would think. That person's decision not to be bound is not persuasive or fruitful
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Originally Posted by LearnMe
Anyone can decide not to abide by any laws in any case.
Not abiding is different from claiming not to be bound by them.
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Originally Posted by LearnMe
Also we can agree that if someone CHOOSES an "alignment with a religion and all that goes with it," they are free to choose and believe accordingly.
So someone chooses an alignment with religion but it is reasonable to reject the rules of that religion? I'm not seeing that.
I am still here, yes, and I am still posting just like you, but what I get and what I don't get seems to be what you are struggling to understand or accept. I've tried to explain in a fair manner, but you're having none of it, and this too I can accept and understand just like I do many an opinion different from mine. We just don't agree is all. No need to get upset about this rather common dynamic that has been driving wedges between men through the ages. Right?
Especially in a safe environment like this one! Not like we're needing to take up arms and deal with any sort of violence between us like the Israelis and Palestinians are having to endure for what seems like forever now, because of these fundamental differences of opinion just for starters. One of the many advantages of living here in America BTW, whether we agree or not, whether we are Jewish or not. Heck, we need not even bother reading let alone responding to one another's posts. Fair?
There is a big difference between your opinion and what the facts are. You are the one who is not understanding and using a Catholic comparison is pretty silly. Your opinion is about as useless as the opinions of Catholics or Palestinians WHICH BOTH claim to replace Israel.
Their opinions are straight out lies born from a spirit of anti-Semitism and just sheer hatred. To even think that they have an opinion is silly, all they have ever had is hate.
Modern Christianity of any form, and Islam don't have opinions of who a Jew is, they have lies, and the lies are easily brought out. Maybe this is why you are so confused?
Nope. Judaism has laws designed specifically to create a society. Its laws are exactly what you seem to say is somehow separate from religious law. Secular law as determined by man is rife with all sorts of controversy (gun laws, psych defenses, community standards...). Religious law, with an unambiguous source sets up a unified society with order, crime prevention and commerce laws.
and be wrong, I would think. That person's decision not to be bound is not persuasive or fruitful
Not abiding is different from claiming not to be bound by them.
So someone chooses an alignment with religion but it is reasonable to reject the rules of that religion? I'm not seeing that.
I've got to sign off now. I know, I know, sorry you and others will miss me, but I've really got to get onto other things...
Nope to you as well! Or help me better understand how "Judaism has laws designed" any differently than other religions, and/or for whatever reasons laws and such guidance are developed in the first place.
Don't know if you read that about Buddhism, but there too is a pretty good explanation that the religions of the world hardly differ in these fundamental respects other than with respect to a) theistic religions versus b) non-theistic. We do agree that Judaism is a religion, so we should be able to agree about these similarities and/or differences with other religions.
Right, wrong, abiding or not, my ongoing simple point is that we are what we CHOOSE to be, Jewish or not, Catholic or not, law-abiding or not, regardless what any society or religion may wish to impose for whatever reasons a society or religion will dictate direction. A polygamist will be a polygamist if this is what they choose to be/believe, regardless the laws to the contrary. Mormons also had their own notions about that sort of thing as well, that ran afoul of common law, no matter. No different than Jewish law.
None of what I am explaining here is to suggest we can't all believe as we wish, for whatever reasons we might, of course. Obviously we all do. Again my interest is how we all believe so differently despite the one truth that really DOES apply to all of us. Can't argue we have choice. Why we choose what we do is more my ongoing focus and interest...
help me better understand how "Judaism has laws designed" any differently than other religions, and/or for whatever reasons laws and such guidance are developed in the first place.
I haven't said that Judaism has laws different from the claims of other religions. You claimed that laws that were not religion-based were to help develop society, but Judaism has all those same laws, except divinely based, not human based.
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Originally Posted by LearnMe
my ongoing simple point is that we are what we CHOOSE to be, Jewish or not, Catholic or not, law-abiding or not, regardless what any society or religion may wish to impose for whatever reasons a society or religion will dictate direction.
So the person from Kiev can choose to be American and then say that American law about what determines American citizenship is not an authority.
If this makes sense to you, so be it. It doesn't make sense to me.
I cannot decide that I am an Italian citizen no matter what Italian law says, or an astronaut and I should be allowed to wander through the space center with impunity. I can tell myself I'm the president of the US, but I'm not.
There is a big difference between your opinion and what the facts are. You are the one who is not understanding and using a Catholic comparison is pretty silly. Your opinion is about as useless as the opinions of Catholics or Palestinians WHICH BOTH claim to replace Israel.
Their opinions are straight out lies born from a spirit of anti-Semitism and just sheer hatred. To even think that they have an opinion is silly, all they have ever had is hate.
Modern Christianity of any form, and Islam don't have opinions of who a Jew is, they have lies, and the lies are easily brought out. Maybe this is why you are so confused?
And the enemy creeps into both camps.
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