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"On December 4th 2001, bill number 1924 was voted on and became law in the Knesset. The bill is an amendment to the Holy sites Law of 1967 and reads, “No ceremony shall be held in the Wall’s women’s section. That includes reading from a Torah, blowing the ram’s horn, wearing prayer shawls or phylacteries. Violators shall be imprisoned for seven years.”"
You're not going to like this. But yes, I agree with the law. That law is a secular-driven law in place to protect the peace (you and I both know the Knesset would not pass a law for purely religious reasons). It's a side effect that it also supports my religious view on the matter. (But 7 years imprisonment sound a little nuts)
Last edited by theflipflop; 04-02-2012 at 01:22 PM..
Reason: to add the last sentence
You're not going to like this. But yes, I agree with the law. That law is a secular-driven law in place to protect the peace (you and I both know the Knesset would not pass a law for purely religious reasons). It's a side effect that it also supports my religious view on the matter. (But 7 years imprisonment sound a little nuts)
you said you support seperate but equal at the kotel. That is not seperate but equal.
And of course all legislation on religious matters in Israel is heavily driven by the religious parties - secular parties tend to want the support of religious parties for their coalitions in order to implement coalition agendas on security or economic questions. the bill in question was in fact introduced by the religious parties.
"(you and I both know the Knesset would not pass a law for purely religious reasons)" this reveals an odd naivete about how israeli coalition building actually functions.
but even if that were so and this were the case "That law is a secular-driven law in place to protect the peace"
One would have to ask - how, exactly, does the wearing of tefillin or the leyning of Torah by women impact the peace, except through the violent actions of those would interfere with it?
Women want to wear tefillin and lein Torah? That should be done inside Conservative and Reform shuls where Orthodox men and women don't step foot. Then everybody can do what they want. At the Kosel? Ugh, why do we have to go there? Were things so broken in the past that they now need to be fixed in a way that's going to incite violence and hatred? If the women want to wear tefillin and lein Torah at the kosel, then find a Beis Din that all parties can agree on, and let them decide. Then all Jews would have to follow the decision.
BBD, I understand where you're coming from. Your viewpoints are the ones most reasonable people would hold (not mine). But I think it's important that we distinguish between what seems reasonable and normal, and what the Torah says. Of course we've proven we can't agree on that, so we're really just excercising our fingers when we debate.
I assume everybody following along will take your viewpoints, which are much more palatible to secular folks, and assume I'm just a Jew-fundy. You can see why I think it's better we Yidden keep a low profile. If Conservative Jews can't understand us Orthodox Jews and why we do what we do, kalval komer the goyim won't be able to, and may actually use this public info to harm us (you, too - as your father would point out).
Women want to wear tefillin and lein Torah? That should be done inside Conservative and Reform shuls where Orthodox men and women don't step foot. Then everybody can do what they want. At the Kosel? Ugh, why do we have to go there? Were things so broken in the past that they now need to be fixed in a way that's going to incite violence and hatred? If the women want to wear tefillin and lein Torah at the kosel, then find a Beis Din that all parties can agree on, and let them decide. Then all Jews would have to follow the decision.
The kotel belongs to the whole Jewish people, even the secularists who do not follow a beit din (and how can we find a beit din we agree on when our rabbis are not even recognized as rabbis?) (btw, even the two factions of satmar can't seem to find a beit din they can agree on and have resorted to secular courts) Ultimately the knesset must decide.
AS for violence and hatred, the responsibility for those is those who hate and act with violence, not the victims who just wanted to daven at the Kotel.
BBD, I understand where you're coming from. Your viewpoints are the ones most reasonable people would hold (not mine). But I think it's important that we distinguish between what seems reasonable and normal, and what the Torah says. Of course we've proven we can't agree on that, so we're really just excercising our fingers when we debate.
I assume everybody following along will take your viewpoints, which are much more palatible to secular folks, and assume I'm just a Jew-fundy. You can see why I think it's better we Yidden keep a low profile. If Conservative Jews can't understand us Orthodox Jews and why we do what we do, kalval komer the goyim won't be able to, and may actually use this public info to harm us (you, too - as your father would point out).
I dont think the proper interpretation of the Torah is so divorced from reason - I really dont think that the halachic process is a magic code - we have very different metahalachic views.
I have studied halacha with an Orthodox rabbi (at a community educational institution) have have read orthodox viewpoints, and listened to dvrei torah at Orthodox shuls. I am trying to understand the O viewpoints. The POV you are presenting here is not the only O viewpoint. As for a public forum, if you are going to discuss Jewish matters here, I am going to respond where I feel its necessary. As for the chillul hashem that Jews sometimes do, sweeping it under the rug at CD doesnt really matter - its in the papers, covered by the NYTimes, the daily news, etc, etc (with much less sympathy and understanding than I give it) Rather than hide it, lets try to do less of it.
BTW, given the prevalence of Christian fundamentalism (and atheism, which tends to mimic the literalist readings of christian fundies) i doubt there are many here who are really terribly sympathetic with my views. The only ones who maybe are the more mainstream christian denominations, esp ones like episcopalians with complex attitudes toward tradition and modernity - I think there are few such folks here.
That group is such a one-off - so far out of any mainstream. Not such a fair thing to impugn all Orthodox by the actions of these people. Quoting that group is like quoting the views of Naturei Karta being the views of Chareidim, just from the other side of the spectrum. At the end of the day, Orthodox Jews are a pretty homogenous group, and really just dispute the finest of details.
Quote:
Ultimately the knesset must decide.
And they have. And you seem to be unhappy with their decision, while I am not. It's unbelievably shocking to the eye to see a woman wear tefillin or lein Torah. I'm not saying they can't do it - but at the holiest site in the jewish world - in direct opposition to the tshuvas of some of the greatest poskim who have ever lived? The secular Israeli government gets a lot of things wrong, but this one they got right.
BBD, not to change the subject (OK, yes, to change it). What do your Pesach home cleaning preparations look like? Just curious, as I'm about to leave the office for yet another all-nighter removing chametz from my home.
This is a very good observation, Pleroo. So this is how my Rav explained it to me: After the covenant Hashem made with Avraham, His intention was that each of the patriarchs would come in pairs. One would see to "worldly matters," while the other delved solely into spiritual matters. <snip>
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
it shows the power and centraility of G-d and his will.
The race is not always to the swift or the battle to the strong. The inheritance is not to the first born, but to the one chosen by G-d. The stone that the builders rejected, etc, etc.
In a world semmingly dominated by strength, by power, by wealth, and by lineage, we are reminded again and again - not by might, and not by power, but by your spirit alone.
(Yippee! it's my favorite holiday of the whole year tonight and tomorrow)
I just want to wish my fellow Yidden a Gut Shabbos. And to everyone else, have a wonderful weekend!
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