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I, on the other hand, suspect that there is a little less beyond debate than you think, and that if you were a scientist, you wouldn't have that shortcoming. I am not convinced that ignorance or error, particularly about events beyond recorded history or beyond our solar system, are undermining peace. Agreed. BTW, you haven't said yet where YOU think the center of the universe is. I certainly don't know, and I'm waiting for you to enlighten us.I don't.
Not sure I know exactly what you mean, but specifics would help, examples. From where I am sitting, all that we both KNOW and would not disagree about, plus what we can agree we really DON'T KNOW, far exceeds that which we would disagree about, whether we be scientists or not.
I suspect one of the greatest sources that undermines peace is ignorance, but of course there are many sources including; the want of power, wealth, differing belief systems (that tend to segregate people according to differing beliefs rather than proven facts). What we agree about (or not) with regard to the universe serves as a good example, because we don't tend to have conflict about what we KNOW and/or don't know as far as science is concerned. No one is "impinging" on others because of the discovery of dark holes, for example. Not much conflict over any of that sort of knowledge or scientific quest for knowledge.
There is a fair amount of conflict coming from varied speculation about God; who has spoken to God, who has written what about God, who has spoken for God, who truly knows God, what religion best represents the truth about God, God's will..., all that has undermined peace throughout the ages!
I thought I did answer your question about the center of the universe in my comment #4632. Did I not?
Thanks again. A pleasure exchanging these thoughts with you in a peaceful adult manner not all too common in these threads...
There is a fair amount of conflict coming from varied speculation about God; who has spoken to God, who has written what about God, who has spoken for God, who truly knows God, what religion best represents the truth about God, God's will..., all that has undermined peace throughout the ages!
Well, I am not sure that I fully agree with that, but you may be correct. For about a milennium and half, Muslims and Christians have been at war, but that may have been over real estate. Likewise Muslims and Jews, recently. I understand that Muslims in India led to the creation of Pakistan, or maybe it was the other Indians who made that happen. Possibly the religious beliefs of some or all Muslims are the common element of discord here, but I'm not so sure.
Quote:
I thought I did answer your question about the center of the universe in my comment #4632. Did I not?
Upon re-reading, perhaps you did. If so, you said you didn't know where the center was, and it was changing, anyway. Presumably you were referring to some physical location in the universe. If that was the case, I'm surprised that you have a problem with my looking at other possible meanings of the word "center." Nothing I'd kill anyone over. Hope that's a common attitude
Well, I am not sure that I fully agree with that, but you may be correct. For about a milennium and half, Muslims and Christians have been at war, but that may have been over real estate. Likewise Muslims and Jews, recently. I understand that Muslims in India led to the creation of Pakistan, or maybe it was the other Indians who made that happen. Possibly the religious beliefs of some or all Muslims are the common element of discord here, but I'm not so sure.Upon re-reading, perhaps you did. If so, you said you didn't know where the center was, and it was changing, anyway. Presumably you were referring to some physical location in the universe. If that was the case, I'm surprised that you have a problem with my looking at other possible meanings of the word "center." Nothing I'd kill anyone over. Hope that's a common attitude
Pretty much agreed with the rest of your post.
Ever since I started to appreciate the scope and consequence of religious conflict, I started reading books about the history of Man, to go back to the beginning and learn what formed these different versions of God and creation and then how they came to interact. In particular to determine the nature of the conflict and the truth about who was doing what to whom and why.
Inevitably, the politics that formed Man into different groups had much to do with what transpired and of course politics also has to do with real estate, and power, and a good many other influences hard to deem holy. Follow that history all the way to how "our world turns" today, and all religions including Judaism, present themselves in better context for anyone interested in how we all ended up where we are today.
Please understand, I have no problem with whatever you want to define as "center." Again on a personal level, you can consider yourself the center of the universe if you like. No concern about that for me. However, if it is our universal truth about such things we are trying to establish, then we must agree on criteria that goes beyond our personal individual beliefs, more like what science tends to rely upon. What is of concern to me is what religious groups think, do and promote in the aggregate that tends to affect others in consequential ways.
I suspect one of the greatest sources that undermines peace is ignorance,
Yes, ignorance and racisim after the Jewish war, Gentiles were no longer brave enough to stand next to the Jew at a synagogue or at any of the feasts that Christianity first began in. The 7 year war naturally led to hate, and this particularly racism against Jews, that resulted in hate against God and anyone who was brave enough to follow the ways of God. I don't blame the Gentile in the midst of so much hate after the stories told of what happened in the 7 year war against Jerusalem where a million people were killed. The city haven been cut off and fallen pray to evil man who cannibalized even children, the hatred for the Jew couldn't have been worse, but imagine the Gentile who was found keeping the Passover of God or any of the ways of the Jews? That Gentile would have been hated even worse and they were hated, their families rounded up, tortured and killed because they were caught doing things that only Jews do. The laws Constantine instituted happened to be a tremendous lesson to an Islam that followed the same path and with the words of Martin Luther, Hitler had won over the minds of the people from century after century of hate and racism against Jews, and to add insult to injury, they themselves claimed to replace Jews.
Both Christianity and Islam began in Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles, and then both of them created their own ways, and yet both are founded in Judaism, both come from the scriptures of the law and the prophets.
What looks simple is that the original is standing, and they alone follow God and his ways, and the other are both making claim on the rewards and inheritance only given to Israel, but the Christian will say,'' I am Israel.''
The thing is this,'' Reality is reality,'' but you can't convince most people of reality, and just because their opinion gives them some misplaced belief that opinion is as good as reality, Opinion is NO DOUBT, a reality that is not always the obvious reality lol.
I can show you hundreds of millions of people who claim to be Israel, but reality tells on them when they are not Jews, when they aren't in Judaism, when they disrespect the ways of God and when they don't keep any of the worship system with it's Sabbaths and ways, and especially when they are against Jews, Judaism, and the commandments of God. WE have self professed Christians quoting promises to the Jews of Judah screaming,'' O, Those promises are about me, You see,'' I am Israel, the real Israel.''
2000 years of racism and hatred against Israel while pretending to be Israel, and then we have Islam founded in Judaism, founded not only in the law and the prophets, but also founded in Christianity waiting and expecting on a great prophet to come. They follow the same path as Christianity is changing their feasts from Judaism when they in fact began in Passover, Pentecost and Sukkot.
Reality is reality but people don't seem to believe in reality when the reality is as obvious as to who it is that follows God, and who it is who have been persecuted for following God.
The Jews are in a unique position in Judaism that just can't be compared to Islam or any type of Christianity because of the fact that the Jews are the original and STILL the only ones who follow God.
The world's opinion is to say something that is not reality when they begin saying,'' I am Israel.''
But their hands prove that they are not, and so their opinion begins in replacement, a replacement explaining to a Jew that he isn't the real Israel and Judaism isn't the religion of God when reality proves that he begins in a pretend reality that isn't true.
Yes, ignorance and racisim after the Jewish war, Gentiles were no longer brave enough to stand next to the Jew at a synagogue or at any of the feasts that Christianity first began in. The 7 year war naturally led to hate, and this particularly racism against Jews, that resulted in hate against God and anyone who was brave enough to follow the ways of God. I don't blame the Gentile in the midst of so much hate after the stories told of what happened in the 7 year war against Jerusalem where a million people were killed. The city haven been cut off and fallen pray to evil man who cannibalized even children, the hatred for the Jew couldn't have been worse, but imagine the Gentile who was found keeping the Passover of God or any of the ways of the Jews? That Gentile would have been hated even worse and they were hated, their families rounded up, tortured and killed because they were caught doing things that only Jews do. The laws Constantine instituted happened to be a tremendous lesson to an Islam that followed the same path and with the words of Martin Luther, Hitler had won over the minds of the people from century after century of hate and racism against Jews, and to add insult to injury, they themselves claimed to replace Jews.
Both Christianity and Islam began in Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles, and then both of them created their own ways, and yet both are founded in Judaism, both come from the scriptures of the law and the prophets.
What looks simple is that the original is standing, and they alone follow God and his ways, and the other are both making claim on the rewards and inheritance only given to Israel, but the Christian will say,'' I am Israel.''
The thing is this,'' Reality is reality,'' but you can't convince most people of reality, and just because their opinion gives them some misplaced belief that opinion is as good as reality, Opinion is NO DOUBT, a reality that is not always the obvious reality lol.
I can show you hundreds of millions of people who claim to be Israel, but reality tells on them when they are not Jews, when they aren't in Judaism, when they disrespect the ways of God and when they don't keep any of the worship system with it's Sabbaths and ways, and especially when they are against Jews, Judaism, and the commandments of God. WE have self professed Christians quoting promises to the Jews of Judah screaming,'' O, Those promises are about me, You see,'' I am Israel, the real Israel.''
2000 years of racism and hatred against Israel while pretending to be Israel, and then we have Islam founded in Judaism, founded not only in the law and the prophets, but also founded in Christianity waiting and expecting on a great prophet to come. They follow the same path as Christianity is changing their feasts from Judaism when they in fact began in Passover, Pentecost and Sukkot.
Reality is reality but people don't seem to believe in reality when the reality is as obvious as to who it is that follows God, and who it is who have been persecuted for following God.
The Jews are in a unique position in Judaism that just can't be compared to Islam or any type of Christianity because of the fact that the Jews are the original and STILL the only ones who follow God.
The world's opinion is to say something that is not reality when they begin saying,'' I am Israel.''
But their hands prove that they are not, and so their opinion begins in replacement, a replacement explaining to a Jew that he isn't the real Israel and Judaism isn't the religion of God when reality proves that he begins in a pretend reality that isn't true.
Early in this thread, the OP made the following comment that I can both appreciate and do in similar fashion. Ultimately we can always leave one another to ourselves and no more or less is really gained or lost...
Originally Posted by theflipflop
"As far as the trolling comments, If a majority of people here at C/D think I'm a troll (as oppossed to a Yid willing to use strong words to make my points), then I guess I could leave this site and let you all go back to your regularly sheltered lives, free of Jews challenging your Chrstian viewpoints."
I have no more emotion or bias about this topic than I do about issues that brought about the Cold War, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, racism..., pick your conflict. I just simply have opinion about the right or wrong regarding these conflicts or beliefs at the heart of these conflicts, why we come to adopt these beliefs. I'm not shy about sharing my thoughts in these regards and more than glad to explain myself when asked to do so, with people in the same spirit (or not). Just as expressed by the OP. In peace! That's all...
Early in this thread, the OP made the following comment that I can both appreciate and do in similar fashion. Ultimately we can always leave one another to ourselves and no more or less is really gained or lost...
Originally Posted by theflipflop
"As far as the trolling comments, If a majority of people here at C/D think I'm a troll (as oppossed to a Yid willing to use strong words to make my points), then I guess I could leave this site and let you all go back to your regularly sheltered lives, free of Jews challenging your Chrstian viewpoints."
I have no more emotion or bias about this topic than I do about issues that brought about the Cold War, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, racism..., pick your conflict. I just simply have opinion about the right or wrong regarding these conflicts or beliefs at the heart of these conflicts, why we come to adopt these beliefs. I'm not shy about sharing my thoughts in these regards and more than glad to explain myself when asked to do so, with people in the same spirit (or not). Just as expressed by the OP. In peace! That's all...
if you want to talk about current "conflicts" or "world events" or "politics" or "wars" then do it over in the forum for "politics and other controversies" or "world events" or "current events."
This Judaism forum however is part of the "religion and spirituality" forum, and it focuses on Judaism, that is the religion of Judaism, Jewish religious beliefs, living a Jewish life, following Jewish law.
We hope you able to make the distinction. We can. The moderators can. Most people posting can. Most people reading can.
Early in this thread, the OP made the following comment that I can both appreciate and do in similar fashion. Ultimately we can always leave one another to ourselves and no more or less is really gained or lost...
Originally Posted by theflipflop
"As far as the trolling comments, If a majority of people here at C/D think I'm a troll (as oppossed to a Yid willing to use strong words to make my points), then I guess I could leave this site and let you all go back to your regularly sheltered lives, free of Jews challenging your Chrstian viewpoints."
I have no more emotion or bias about this topic than I do about issues that brought about the Cold War, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, racism..., pick your conflict. I just simply have opinion about the right or wrong regarding these conflicts or beliefs at the heart of these conflicts, why we come to adopt these beliefs. I'm not shy about sharing my thoughts in these regards and more than glad to explain myself when asked to do so, with people in the same spirit (or not). Just as expressed by the OP. In peace! That's all...
When the Opening Post was made, the thread was in the main Religion and Philosophy forum. When the Judaism sub-forum was created, the owner of the forum moved this thread into that sub-forum. Axiomatically, that was also before there were any Judaism forum posting rules. Obviously, the dynamics were different in that setting.
The last paragraph of this post has nothing to do with Judaism.
When the Opening Post was made, the thread was in the main Religion and Philosophy forum. When the Judaism sub-forum was created, the owner of the forum moved this thread into that sub-forum. Axiomatically, that was also before there were any Judaism forum posting rules. Obviously, the dynamics were different in that setting.
The last paragraph of this post has nothing to do with Judaism.
Thank you. I did not know this thread got moved around as you explain. Also interesting...
As I have mentioned before, I first came to this thread because I had a question about the 613 commandments. As a result of different comments directed toward me since then, I have been participating in this thread accordingly, responding/replying. In similar fashion and spirit, the paragraph you mention above was in reply to what Hannibal Flavius wrote about Judaism, Christianity and Islam. A comment Hannibal Flavius also directed to me.
if you want to talk about current "conflicts" or "world events" or "politics" or "wars" then do it over in the forum for "politics and other controversies" or "world events" or "current events."
This Judaism forum however is part of the "religion and spirituality" forum, and it focuses on Judaism, that is the religion of Judaism, Jewish religious beliefs, living a Jewish life, following Jewish law.
We hope you able to make the distinction. We can. The moderators can. Most people posting can. Most people reading can.
If I may respond to your comment directed to me as well, Tzaphkiel, please, in peace...
First, I don't really have particular interest to discuss "current conflicts" etc. in this thread (though I am open to any topic of interest to others that also interests me). In the same comment you partially quote, I tried to explain my interest is in "beliefs at the heart of these conflicts, why we come to adopt these beliefs." Seems to me, this is hard to do without asking those who adopt these beliefs. By doing so, I have learned a good deal more about these differences from those willing to explain.
Second, not all Jewish people feel the way you do, come to believe what they do for the same reasons, follow Jewish law in the same way or mind discussing these particulars. Is this too not a distinction important to recognize? Clearly neither of us can speak for everyone posting in this thread or the moderators, but I have noticed most comments seem to be inspired by our different perspectives, again in exchange with me, while meanwhile, where are the comments you might prefer to discuss? I am interested in those as well! And/or instead.
I made a point of staying closer to the rules and/or recommendations of this forum, and I thought I had, still would like to, but obviously you have a perspective about all this very different from mine, you and others but not all. Nevertheless, okay. I will not respond to any comment directed to me unless it seems as you prefer.
Do please lead the way in terms of comments better fitting in this thread. I enjoy the comments that seem to be directed to me in the spirit that I visit this thread, but I'm more than glad to "take a back seat" and allow you (or anyone else) to do the driving. Okay? Lead the way, and I will follow...
Curious as to what my fellow Jews' favorite parts/verses of Torah (and I do mean Torah) are. It's easy to find motivational passages in the Nevi'im and Ketuvim, but not always so easy in the Five Books.
Personally, I think mine is Devarim, Chapter 30 (Moses's speech where he states that we have choice between life and death, blessing and curse, and he commands us to chose life).
For me, it summarizes all the reasons to embrace Torah in a couple of sentences.
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