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I suppose whether literal or figurative, I personally get from it that the world was different prior to man's action of eating from the tree, going against God's command. Would you agree? I think about the Ten Commandments, and how the people to this day view it (and all of the 613 laws) as the most important thing in our lives. Yet I wonder why God didn't give the first man, whether Adam literally existed or if Genesis is of the other three interpretations, the Law? Say if Adam and Eve never ate from the tree, would the Law still have come?
I heard a talk on this very subject just this last Shabbos. Moshe Rabbeinu (Moses) was the first person in mankind's history to fully merit the giving of the Torah. Adam ha Rishon sinned with the tree. Noach sinned by drinking wine from his vinyard. Avram Aveinu and his son and grandson did not merit either.
In last week's public Torah reading, we read the Jews response to being offered the Torah at Har Sinai: they said na'ase venishma - we will do and we will obey. We learn from this that the Jews did not ask Hashem what was in the Torah before accepting it. The midrash tells us the Torah was offered to all 70 nations first before it was offered to the lowly Jews, and each one inquired what was in that book, and each one came to the conclusion that they could not obey and therefore declined Hashem's sweat offer. Only the Jews said "yes" first, then asked what was inside. Hashem saw this as proof of the lowly nation's desire to know Him, and he has had a special relationship with us ever since, no matter how bad we act (and we do act bad often times).
Originally Posted by Heavenese I suppose whether literal or figurative, I personally get from it that the world was different prior to man's action of eating from the tree, going against God's command. Would you agree? I think about the Ten Commandments, and how the people to this day view it (and all of the 613 laws) as the most important thing in our lives. Yet I wonder why God didn't give the first man, whether Adam literally existed or if Genesis is of the other three interpretations, the Law? Say if Adam and Eve never ate from the tree, would the Law still have come?
And FYI, we read the haceros hadibros (the 10 "utterances," or ten commandments as non-Jews call it) just a few weeks back, and in most shuls around the world, Jews stand for this particular section of this particular Torah reading. Other Jews do not. The standing or sitting for the haceros hadibros represents a big disagreement with the Jewish people. Are the 10 utterances just 10 of the 613 mitzvohs found in the Torah and there's no way to know which ones are more important that the others - therefore we do not stand? Or are they special in some way? Many learn that one can "learn out" all 613 from the words found inside the 10, and therefore they stand in honor of the entire Torah when the 10 are read. My shul stands...
I heard a talk on this very subject just this last Shabbos. Moshe Rabbeinu (Moses) was the first person in mankind's history to fully merit the giving of the Torah. Adam ha Rishon sinned with the tree. Noach sinned by drinking wine from his vinyard. Avram Aveinu and his son and grandson did not merit either.
In last week's public Torah reading, we read the Jews response to being offered the Torah at Har Sinai: they said na'ase venishma - we will do and we will obey. We learn from this that the Jews did not ask Hashem what was in the Torah before accepting it. The midrash tells us the Torah was offered to all 70 nations first before it was offered to the lowly Jews, and each one inquired what was in that book, and each one came to the conclusion that they could not obey and therefore declined Hashem's sweat offer. Only the Jews said "yes" first, then asked what was inside. Hashem saw this as proof of the lowly nation's desire to know Him, and he has had a special relationship with us ever since, no matter how bad we act (and we do act bad often times).
You said some very interesting things. Does the midrash come from oral tradition? Yet I wonder in terms of relationship, Abraham is considered a friend of God. That is wonderful, that God considered a man His friend. I don't know so much about nations out right rejecting God's ways per say, even though they definitely did, yet I always saw it as God was looking for one man who would trust in Him. He found that man in Abraham, and God promised him that his seed would be blessed. It's not so much God found a people, but that God blessed the people because of their father. With all that said, even Moses said the people would break the Law that was given in his song, found in deuteronomy. In one way the people of Israel accepting God's laws can be seen as a desire to know Him, but when they said they would do them, could that be seen as pride? The greatest command of course was to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Who in the world have done that?
The Law, the ten utterances are wonderful. Yet who have kept them? Who can keep them? My biggest question is, with all that said, why do we still try to keep them when we know we can't?
And FYI, we read the haceros hadibros (the 10 "utterances," or ten commandments as non-Jews call it) just a few weeks back, and in most shuls around the world, Jews stand for this particular section of this particular Torah reading. Other Jews do not. The standing or sitting for the haceros hadibros represents a big disagreement with the Jewish people. Are the 10 utterances just 10 of the 613 mitzvohs found in the Torah and there's no way to know which ones are more important that the others - therefore we do not stand? Or are they special in some way? Many learn that one can "learn out" all 613 from the words found inside the 10, and therefore they stand in honor of the entire Torah when the 10 are read. My shul stands...
Yeah I personally found the other laws beside the ten, are just laws ensuring we keep the ten. That the ten are just the summed up version of the other laws, and loving God and man with everything we are, is the sum of the ten.
They are separate things. Oral law was given to Moses at Mount Sinai and was immediately transmitted to his brother Aharon, his student Yehoshua ben Nun and to the elders. Midrash are the writings of later Jews who are commenting on the oral law.
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even Moses said the people would break the Law that was given in his song, found in deuteronomy. In one way the people of Israel accepting God's laws can be seen as a desire to know Him, but when they said they would do them, could that be seen as pride?
If that action is described as pride, then I would suspect the person who describes it as such has a nefarious agenda in saying so. Matan Torah (the giving and accepting of the Torah at Mount Sinai) is perhaps the greatest event to have ever occured in mankind's history. Pride? Feh!
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The greatest command of course was to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.
Sorry, not a Jewish concept. Not true at all to us Jews. I know who came up with this idea, and well, that guy means nothing to us.
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The Law, the ten utterances are wonderful. Yet who have kept them? Who can keep them? My biggest question is, with all that said, why do we still try to keep them when we know we can't?
Also hogwash. i keep them. My children keep them. Millions of Torah Observant Jews keep them. The goyim say they are impossible to keep, and for them, well that would be correct. For a Jew, not so difficult at all.
Is this not in the Shema, though? I mostly say it in English so maybe I am missing something from the translation. I certainly hope not.
It is in the Sh'ma (or it's at least translated that way), but I've never heard it described as the "greatest" commandment. At least not outside of Christianity.
The same section tells us to remember all of the commandments and to teach them to our children.
It is in the Sh'ma (or it's at least translated that way), but I've never heard it described as the "greatest" commandment. At least not outside of Christianity.
The same section tells us to remember all of the commandments and to teach them to our children.
Oh, I understand now - you're right - it doesn't specify that it's the "greatest" command. I should have realized this as many times as I have said this prayer!
Here's another question. (By the way for those who are wondering, even though I'm asking questions, I also want to have discussions with the answers. Again, I'm not trying to preach) What are the purpose for the sacrifices in the Torah? Now I have an idea about what it's all about, but I want the Hebrew understanding before I comment.
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Originally Posted by theflipflop
Also hogwash. i keep them. My children keep them. Millions of Torah Observant Jews keep them. The goyim say they are impossible to keep, and for them, well that would be correct. For a Jew, not so difficult at all.
Have you really kept them? Are you better than David, who has been said to be a man after God's own heart? Are you better than Solomon, who was the wisest man to have lived on earth? Both those guys broke God's commands.
Last edited by Heavenese; 02-14-2013 at 01:56 PM..
Have you really kept them? Are you better than David, who has been said to be a man after God's own heart? Are you better than Solomon, who was the wisest man to have lived on earth? Both those guys broke God's commands.
I look at it like it would be in the workplace. 98% of the time, I rock it, and my boss tells me what a great job I do. The other 2% of the time, I mess things up, and my boss "coaches" me on the proper way to get it done, and then next time I rock it.
Torah observance works the same way. Have I ever bumped into a light switch on Shabbos and turned on the room light? Of course I have. Have I ever followed a halachic leniency when my mesorah (tradition) is to follow the chumra (the stringency)? of course I have. Do any of these situations mean it's impossible to follow the law? Don't be ridiculous. I know what the Chrstians say about the law being impossible to follow therefore they are exempt, but they have to come up with some kind of excuse for why they don't follow the law - so they've arbitrarily picked that one. But that matters not. Jews don't really care (and certainly do not expect) if Chrsitians follow the law. You're not in the same covenant that we Jews are in. You're actually forbidden to follow the law according to most opinions. You're certainly forbidden to properly observe Shabbos. So pick any excuse in the world for YOU not to follow the law, but please please do not try to give my fellow Jews any excuses for why they don't follow it. Because they have none.
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