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Old 01-27-2012, 02:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
I see my original guess was right then when I assumed it to mean kaffir (the English rendition used by the British) Try using that word in Africa, you will get beaten up or at minimum a fine for defamation of character. Not even Jews or muslims here would dare use the word. But the point I made stands in that it was a simple ad hom attack.

(Mods, please leave word as is so folk can actually learn from this.)
Yes, indeed. Many speakers of a particular language are unaware that their language is part of a larger family, and that familial linguistic relationship occur. Of course, given the viewpoint being dealt with - it's highly likely that he shares the traditional view that Hebrew was the first language, so other languages would not have had an effect on it. Arabic and Hebrew are both members of the same larger family - as are Akkadian, Eblaitic, Moabitic, Ugaritic, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
You know what would be nice here? Citations. Claiming an oral tradition that has been around for eons, well the Catholics claim that too. As far as I am concerned, this is a baseless claim as oral tradition is anyway the way we learn. We learn age appropriate like parents "lie" to their kids as to where they come from (stork stories) and then later we actually learn the truth and the real mechanics behind this. One then has to take the Jewish oral tradition as infallible just like the catholic one is allegedly infallible. The oral traditions came about as folk became literate like in the last 150 years and could actually read bibles in their native tongue.
I agree to a large degree. In addition, Josephus must be approached just as critically as any other historical source, especially since he was not an unbiased, objective writer. It's curious that he is invoked to back up tradtional jewish claims, but that his words were preserved by Christians; he was considered a traitor by most jews for his actions during the Revolt when he eventually sided with the Romans. It is a good thing his words were preserved, however, for it is from him that we receive valuable information concerning the different jewish sects of his time, among other things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post

I worked with a Scotsman here in SA who converted to Judaism and he was not required by the Rabbi to first learn Hebrew. I am sure in other countries the same holds true.

I still hold to that this was parrot recitation w/o actually knowing the linguistics. Whoppers has already dealt with this and I agree with his points.
Yes... In addition to the forum poster I've mentioned before, one of my neighbors is another good case in point - he is able to read and speak the Hebrew (with it's vowel points - not so good without them), but he has virtually no idea what he is reading or speaking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
The moving rock is inferred I think as there are the accounts of the pillar of smoke and pillar of fire to guide them so it is not a stretch to simply take the rock was always there with them.
20 So they took their journey from Succoth and camped in Etham at the edge of the wilderness. 21 And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so as to go by day and night. 22 He did not take away the pillar of cloud by day or the pillar of fire by night from before the people.
The entire account from them leaving after the plagues and the death of the first born of Egypt (the idea that after all this they found favour with the Egyptians and the Egyptians surrendered gold and silver et al. for a people that were allegedly enslaved seems a real tall tale seeing they suddenly depart in haste at night)
I've edited the post a bit to save space, and to avoid repeating, but the entire post is well written. The interesting part about the water issue, that you mention, and its relationship to the Well of Miriam is that, according to tradition, there were vast rivers that sprang forth from the Well - to name just one of the fantastic features of the tradition. The unfortunate result is that the traditional explanation for the Exodus becomes even more miraculous than the biblical account, in several ways.

Since nobody has taken me up on my offer to give the traditional view, I suppose I shall have to do it. The problems with using the traditional view to assess your arguments should become apparant, and further show why there is the need to approach it in the modern spirit of investigation that attempts to rid itself of pre-conceived ideas. It seems pretty clear that the traditional arguments being offered are built upon the interpretations of the past, rather than on a plain-sense reading - which is usually a good point of departure for a reasonable analysis.
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Old 01-27-2012, 06:45 PM
 
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Traditio

(This is a continuation of the question of Miriams Well, or the "moving rock")

The Account of the Exodus and its miraculous events concerning the "rock" and "boulder" that gave forth water, opens up some initial difficulties in reading the material.

The problems:
The ancient interpreters were faced with the problem that, apart from these several accounts, no mention is made of the Israelites ever having anymore problems procuring water during the long 40 years of wandering. Considering the amount of Israelites posited in the biblical account and their large amount of livestock, and adding the amount of water needed to sustain life that Seeker has supplied, it appears curious that there are no further accounts detailing the difficulty of procuring water, the digging of wells, or any other methods of collecting water. So what did the Israelites do for water in the intervening time?

Another problem that poses itself is the terminology used to describe the miraculous water-sources: the first account calls "the name of the place: Massa/Testing, and Meriva/Quarreling", and the second account says that "those were the waters of Meriva/Quarreling". (It would probably be more accurate to list it as Meriba, or Meribah - since the "v" is technically a "b" and the "v" in the translation is there for pronounciations sake.) So the ancient readers were faced with the question of where Meribah was located: Refidim or Kadesh?

The solutions:
The problems listed above seemed to reach one conclusion: since no mention is made of any water-problems in the intervening time between events, and both accounts refer to Meribah - then it must have been the very same rock the whole time, and the rock somehow came or moved with them. While not specific in its description, one can see how the following Psalm can also have added to the traditional view.
But they went on sinning against Him,
defying the Most High in the parched land.
To test God was in their mind
when they demanded food for themselves.
They spoke against God, saying,
"Can God spread a feast in the wilderness?
True, He struck the rock and waters flowed,
streams gushed forth;
but can He provide bread?
Can He supply His people with meat?"
(Psalm 78:17-20, NJPS)
This Psalm has some curious features, especially the verse above that removes Moses from the picture and switches dialogue, with God striking the rock as well. Traditional interpreters would have a field-day in reconciling many of these differences with the account in Exodus and Numbers, and some of it is evident in the very subject we are discussing.
The next source is much more specific, and elaborates on the water-stories quite a bit:

Now He led His people into the wilderness; for forty years he rained down for them bread from heaven and brought quail to them from the sea and brought forth a well of water to follow them. Now with a pillar of cloud he led them by day, and with a pillar of fire he gave them light by night....

And there he commanded him [Moses] many things and showed him the tree of life, from which he cut off and took and threw into Marah, and the water of Marah became sweet. And it followed them in the wilderness forty years and went up into the mountains with them and went down with them into the plains.
(Pseudo-Philo, Book of Biblical Antiquites, 10:7, 11:15
Now we have a "following well" which stayed with the Israelites for quite some time. The 1st Century Christian writers, coming from a Jewish tradition, would of course borrow much of this tradtional interpretation:
I want you to be quite certain, brothers, that our ancestors all had the cloud over them and all passed through the sea.
In the cloud and in the sea they were all baptised into Moses;all ate the same spiritual ["supernatural" - better] food and all drank the same spiritual drink, since they drank from the spiritual rock which followed them, and that rock was Christ.
In spite of this, God was not pleased with most of them, and their corpses were scattered over the desert.
(I Corinthians 10:1-5, NJB)
Paul interprets, what must have been a familiar traditional interpretation to him, the material into a typology of Christ, of course; this would be typical Christian interpretational methodology.
Further information can be gleaned from jewish sources again:
And so, the well that was with Israel in the desert was like a rock the size of a large container, gushing upwards as if from a narrow-neck flask, going up with them to the mountains and going down with them to the valleys.
(Tosefta Sukkah 3:11)
But where does Miriam come into all this? If one reads the account in Numbers, Miriam's death occurs, and then the Israelites are thirsty again, so the ancient interpreters assumed that Miriams death was somehow related to the "well".
And [Moses] stripped Aaron of his garments and put them on Eleazar his son; and Aaron died there on the top of the mountain, and Moses and Eleazar came down from the mountain. And all the people of the congregation saw that Aaron had died, and the whole house of Israel wept for Aaron for thirty days. And the Caananite, the king of Arad, who was dwelling in the south heard that Aaron, the pious man for whose merits the clouds of the glory used to lead Israel forth, had been removed; and that Miriam the prophetess, for whose merits the well used to come up for them, had been removed; that Israel had reached the route through which the spies had come up. And they waged war on Israel and took captives from among them.
(Targum Neofiti on Numbers 20:28-21:1)
Notice the mixing of actual biblical material and targumic interpretation above. From here we see the tradtional idea of The Four Gifts (see the first quotation from Pseudo-Philo)- which I won't go into here, but suffice it to say that the Israelites were given the moving well because of Miriam. This is why, interpreters reasoned, when she died, the Israelites magical, moving well went dry and they had to petition Moses for another source of water ("petition" is a mild word for the grumbling that they actually did).
After this section from the Targum, it elaborates on the well, and one can see the paraphrase of Pseudo-Philo in it:
And from there the well was given to them. This is the well of which the Lord said to Moses: "Gather the people together and I will give them water."
Then Israel sung this song of praise;
"Spring up, O well"; they sang to it; and it sprang up.
It is the well which the princes of the world, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, dug from the beginning;
the intelligent ones of the people perfected it, the seventy sages who were distinguished;
the scibes of Israel, Moses and Aaron measured it with their rods;
and from the wilderness it was given to them (as) as gift.
And after the well had been given to them as a gift, it went on to become for them swelling torrents;
and after if had become swelling torrents, it went on to go up with them to the tops of the mountains and to go down with them to the deep valleys;
and after it had gone up with them to the tops of the high mountains and had gone down with them to the deep glens, it was hidden from them in the valley which is at the boundaries of the Moabites, the top of the height which looks out opposite Beth Jeshimon.
(Targum Neofiti on Numbers 21:16-20)
The traditional story now includes additional information concerning its ancient status - a well that the Patriarchs themselves had dug and used.
Another source gives us further details concerning the importance of Miriam:
And Miriam was shut up outside the camp for seven days;
and the people did not journey until such time as Miriam was healed.
Although Miriam the prophetess was sentenced to become leprous, there is much teaching (in this) for sages and for those who keep the law, that for a small precept which a man does, he receives for it a great reward.
Because Miriam stood on the bank of the river to know what be the end of Moses, Israel became sixty myriads - which is a total of eighty legions.
And the clouds of the glory and the well did not move nor journey from their places until such time as the prophetess Miriam was healed of her leprosy.
(And after the prophetess Miriam was healed of her leprosy,) after this the people moved from Hazeroth and camped in the wilderness of Paran.
(Palestinian Targum on Numbers 12:15-16)
The miraculous quality of the rock/boulder has become even bigger and become Miriams Well in the eyes of tradtion, a well that would follow the Israelites around on their journeys, and was much older than previously thought. We have come a long way from the intital accounts of Exodus and Numbers!

Louis Ginzberg helpfully compiles much rabbinic material concerning Miriams Well, and paraphrase it in his multi-volume work The Legends of the Jews, and it from this that I now derive more information from.

He mentions that "it was plainly the duty of the Israelites to devote themeselves exclusively to the study of the Torah. When, therfore, they slackened in the performace of this duty, punishment in the form of lack of water immediately overtook them" (Volume 3, p. 51). Moses assures them that their grumbling is tolerated so that "His name may sound in glory throughout the world". God, uncharistically (given his frequent anger at them, which Moses must assuage) replied: "Try thou to act like Me: as I return good for evil, so do thou return to them good for evil, and forgive their trespass". To prove that he was not bringing water out of a well, elders accompany him, the rock is struck by the rod, and water comes out. This was Massah and Meribah (the initial miracle).
The water that flowed for them on this spot served not only as a relief for their present need, but on this occasion there was revealed to them a well of water, which did not abondon them in all their forty years' wandering, but accompanied them on all their marches. God wrought this great miracle for the merits of the prophetess Miriam, wherfore it was called "Miriam's Well." But this well dates back to the begininng of the world, for God created it on the second day of the creation, and one time it was in the possession of Abraham. It was this same well that Abraham demanded back from Abimelech, king of the Philistines [even though the Philistines had not been in the land during the alleged time of Abraham], after the king's servants had violently taken it away." (ibid, p. 52)
The matter is settled using their disparate sheep and to which sheep the well would give water. " 'And,' continued Abraham, 'from that same well shall the seventh generation after me, the wanderers in the desert, draw their supply'. " (p. 53) It followed the Israelites, eventually settling before the Tabernacle. Many of the features of the rock previously mentioned in the above quotations of Pseudo-Philo and the Targums are related, as well - I find no need to repeat them. Now the account gets even more miraculous after it was related that the jews would sing to the well.
Then the water would gush forth from the depths of the well, and shoot up high as pillars, then discharge itself into great streams that were navigable, and on these rivers the Jews sailed to the ocean, and hauled all the treasures of the world therefrom.

The different parts of the camp were separated by these rivers, so that women, visiting each other, were obliged to make use of ship. Then the water discharged itself beyond the encampment, where it surrounded a great plain, in which grew every conceivable kind of plant and tree; and these trees, owing to the miraculous water, daily bore fresh fruits. This well brought fragrant herbs with it, so that the women had no need of perfumes on the march, for the herbs they gathered served this purpose. This well furthermore threw down soft, fragrant kinds of grass that served as pleasant couches for the poor, who had no pillows or bedclothes. Upon the entrance to the Holy Land this well disappeared and was hidden in a certain spot of the Sea of Tiberias. Standing upon Carmel, and looking over the sea, one can notice there a sieve-like rock, and that is the well of Miriam. Once upon a time it happened that a leper bathed at this place of the Sea of Tiberias, and hardly had he come in contact with the waters of Miriam's well when he was instantly healed.
(pp. 53-54)
The sources used by Ginzberg are easily found in his final volume of the series, which is an entire index to itself. For those intently interested in following up his versions, the information is available - and the books themselves in a place such as Google Books; they are public domain by now, no doubt - but still incredible sources of traditional jewish interpretation. AS for the actual evolution of Miriam's Well:
Wow! It just gets better and better! Now, with all these rivers crossing the land to the Ocean, the Israelites would have had no problem with water! In addition to that, Miriam's Well seems to have other miraculous powers - including healing, making grass beds for the poor, perfuming any who drank, from which many good things to eat grew, etc. This is the power of traditional rabbinic midrash on such biblical accounts. It shows the great imagination of the rabbis and other interpreters, but it also shows how vastly removed from the plain-sense of the Bible such things are. This is why rabbinic Judaism has the reputation it does.

Michael Fishbane, in Biblical Interpretation in Ancient Israel, sums it up succintly in the Introduction to his work:
One of the most remarkable features of the great world religions is the emergence to independent dignity of traditions and commentaries which supplement the original authoritative teachings - be these latter the product of divine revelation or human wisdom....
It is in the classical expressions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam...that interpretation has become a cultural form of the first magnitude - transforming the foundational revelations of the [3 religions]...., and determining the fateful historical paths of [them]. Indeed, far from simply being the fundamental mode whereby divine revelationsand philosophical truths maintain their ongoing cultural value, human interpretation is also constitutive of what has been even more fateful and fundamental for our religious-cultural heritage...."zitathaftes Leben': the dependence of the great religious-cultural formations on authoritative views which are studied, reinterpreted, and adapted to ongoing life. So much, it seems, is derivation - as opposed to radical innovation - a central ingredient of the human religious condition, that Gautama Buddha set his whole revolution of consciousness deliberately against it, only to have his followers turn him into a trascendent source of wisdomand his works into the subject-matter of exegesis. Moreover, the exegetical orientationis also basic to the internal trasnformationsof the historical religions. Significantly, the Teacher of Righteousness at Qumran, and Jesus, and Paul, and all the religious reformers that come to mind, presented themselves as the authentic interpreters of the religions which they represented.

Among the historical religions, none so much prizes 'zitathaftes Leben' as does Judaism, which casts the scholar and disciple of the wise as its central religious type, and God himself as their prototype. Complementing this attitude, the early rabbis actually portrayed their God midrashically as a scholar of his own Torah and as subordinate to the decisions made by the disciples of the wise! It is thus no understatement that the Jewish preoccupation with interpretation has proved fateful to the historical course of Judaism, and to the religions and civilizations influence by it. In fact, the exegetical achievements of Judaism (and Christianity and Islam) have proved so prodicious and protean that the original hierarchical relationship of revelation to exegetical tradition has been inverted for all practical purposes. Indeed, it is a commonplace in traditional Judaism and Christianity (Roman and Orthodox) to affirm that revelation is comprehensible only through the authoritative tradition of interpretation. To the historically minded, this transformation - and it occured early - is nothing short of remarkable. The protest of the Reformers, 'sola scriptura', stands out in sharp relief against this background.
(pp. 1-2, Clarendon Press - Oxford, 1985)
That rather long quote sums the situation up nicely, and much better than I probably could have. The question now remains: seeing how easily the traditum of Exodus and Numbers came to be changed through traditio, how reliable is it for a truly unfettered, rational investigation of the Exodus Tradition? Standard Jewish Traditional Interpretation would eventually give way to these modern methods of reading a text, from both historical and literary approaches. I was hoping that someone else could have supplied the Jewish perspective more fully, but I suppose that wasn't going to happen. Oh well. At least it's interesting to see how the accounts were interpreted into extreme flights of fancy, positing more miraculous events than even the original text purported to relate.

This interpretational fancy should now be a good background to see where some of the more traditional forum posters are coming from, and why they are so antithetical to a different approach. I must admit that the stories are very entertaining and have an important place in Jewish tradition, but I believe that they are not very helpful in determing historical data concerning the Exodus Tradition.
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Old 01-27-2012, 11:11 PM
 
Location: South Africa
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Great Post Whoppers
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Old 01-30-2012, 08:55 AM
 
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Seeker, you probably know we Jews have a public Torah reading every Shabbos where we read the weekly parsha (a parsha is roughly 1/52nd of the Torah - if you read a Parsha every week, you read the whole Torah every year). The parsha where the Jews leave Mitzrayim (Egypt) is coming up. I usually take the time with each parsha each week to read some Midrashim (extra bibilical writings that did not make the written Torah, but are included as part of the Oral Torah) relating to the weekly parsha. If I glean anything that I think you might find interesting, or related to this thread, I'll let you know.

I did ask my rabbi this past Shabbos if the "well" followed the Jews around in the midbar (the desert), and he confirmed what I thought I already knew - that it did. I told him about your calculations, and he agreed that those sounded just about right. Obviously we Jews have to believe in some crazy magical weirdo stuff to make our story reconcile with reality. Lucky for us, we do...
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:22 AM
 
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We Jews also read a small portion of the Torah during the Monday and Thursday Shacharit (morning service), and that's the reason why, when moving to a new house or new apartment, Jews will only move on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. The other custom is that the first item brought into the new residence are bread and salt (I added the toilet bowl plunger to that short list).
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Old 01-30-2012, 11:55 AM
 
Location: South Africa
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Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
I did ask my rabbi this past Shabbos if the "well" followed the Jews around in the midbar (the desert), and he confirmed what I thought I already knew - that it did. I told him about your calculations, and he agreed that those sounded just about right. Obviously we Jews have to believe in some crazy magical weirdo stuff to make our story reconcile with reality. Lucky for us, we do...
The problem even with a mobile well/rock servicing two million people, the flow rate is the next thing that has to be ignored. I previously did a calculation of this flow rate which was something like 180 water heaters volume per second again just for human consumption that is about 180x150 27 kilo litres per second or 27 tonnes of water per second. I do not think even the mighty Victoria waterfalls where I grew up till age 6 has that capacity except maybe in extreme floods. (that may have been for the 6M figure)

At least you are honest in acknowledging it is an appeal to magic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan View Post
We Jews also read a small portion of the Torah during the Monday and Thursday Shacharit (morning service), and that's the reason why, when moving to a new house or new apartment, Jews will only move on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. The other custom is that the first item brought into the new residence are bread and salt (I added the toilet bowl plunger to that short list).
No one can say you guys do not have a sense of humour
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:14 PM
 
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Seeker, this Shabbos i was sitting at lunch with my rabbi and big group of Yidden. We were lightly discussing the Morman faith, and all the peculiar things they believe (this is too big a concept to discuss in this thread), when the rabbi's wife reminded all of us that we Jews have (from the viewpoint of an outsider) just as many bizzarre magic voodoo weirdo things we believe.

The difference, of course, is these are our beliefs, and we're sticking to them as our own. The Mormans are the largest proselytizing organization on the planet. In other words, the Jewish belief system is harmless to all of you (even though I hear people think we secretly we run the world). Mormanism, well...
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:38 PM
 
Location: South Africa
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FF I have nothing against Jews or any believers. The exodus myth affects both Jews and xians alike as the commandments are central to both sides.

If exodus never happened then the concept that the Jews borrowed this from the book of the dead etc. holds credence however the cultural aspects post that plays out is really a personal thing I have no issue with. I served with Jews in the military and they were fine lads. I also played cricket for a Jewish club in my younger days. No Jew ever tried to convert me. This is purely a theological discussion.
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Old 04-24-2012, 12:10 PM
 
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Great set of posts. It took a little while for me to understand why the Jews were adamant about going against all reason when it came to the Exodus, but then I had to be reminded that the basis of their faith and of Christianity rests upon Exodus. No Exodus and no Judaism or Christianity as we know it. History shows that no part of the Exodus story could have been true since Egypt was the empire around that time. But that is one of many challenges with the Torah. There was no rich Solomon or great kingdom that David ruled. Rather, these were ways of people trying to explain the politics of the day. Or, it was early PR work. Unfortunately, strict belief of myth has led people to adhere to magical thinking and it persists, today, in most orthodox communities, including Christian evangelicals who believe that the world was created in 6 days, etc. This magical thinking is leading to serious political consequences. As a result of this magical thinking there has been a strange marriage between evangelical Christianity and various Jewish groups. Both are looking forward to their messiah and unfortunately it may be a self-fulfilling prophecy. (Muslims are looking forward to their messiah as well.) But, to get back to this excellent post, the axiom which lays this bare is contained in this story of the Exodus (and perhaps Eden before that). I wonder if seekers of truth, and especially religious ones, are willing to pray for truth. I wonder if they are willing to admit that although knowledge can be used for ill, in itself it is good. As such, would knowledge not therefore not be a form of intelligence and therefore not be a form of truth? If so, then should they not be paying attention to it? If so, then should they not be paying attention to modern science and consider the possibility that the Creator manifests Himself or Herself in all and not just in one people or place or time?
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MackJack View Post
Great set of posts. It took a little while for me to understand why the Jews were adamant about going against all reason when it came to the Exodus, but then I had to be reminded that the basis of their faith and of Christianity rests upon Exodus. No Exodus and no Judaism or Christianity as we know it. History shows that no part of the Exodus story could have been true since Egypt was the empire around that time. But that is one of many challenges with the Torah. There was no rich Solomon or great kingdom that David ruled. Rather, these were ways of people trying to explain the politics of the day. Or, it was early PR work. Unfortunately, strict belief of myth has led people to adhere to magical thinking and it persists, today, in most orthodox communities, including Christian evangelicals who believe that the world was created in 6 days, etc. This magical thinking is leading to serious political consequences. As a result of this magical thinking there has been a strange marriage between evangelical Christianity and various Jewish groups. Both are looking forward to their messiah and unfortunately it may be a self-fulfilling prophecy. (Muslims are looking forward to their messiah as well.) But, to get back to this excellent post, the axiom which lays this bare is contained in this story of the Exodus (and perhaps Eden before that). I wonder if seekers of truth, and especially religious ones, are willing to pray for truth. I wonder if they are willing to admit that although knowledge can be used for ill, in itself it is good. As such, would knowledge not therefore not be a form of intelligence and therefore not be a form of truth? If so, then should they not be paying attention to it? If so, then should they not be paying attention to modern science and consider the possibility that the Creator manifests Himself or Herself in all and not just in one people or place or time?

Good post - especially the ending.

I agree with you that the idea that God is a god of just one people (whether it's nationally or spiritually) is one that was discarded and inveighed against by one biblical writer as far back as the book of Jonah - which is a great example of anti-Nationalism and anti-"Chosen-People" priority. It's just a pity that most people focused on the big fish in the story, and missed the over-riding theme of the Book.
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