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Old 03-26-2012, 06:07 AM
 
Location: New York City
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I never noticed this when I was a Christian (who used to believe the creation of the state of Israel in 1948 was biblical fulfillment), but a few years back I noticed that the New Testament is practically MUM about some future return. IT is no surprise that predictions are relegated to the Old Testament while the Jews were exiled in Babylon but once we get to the New Testament, centuries after Jews were allowed back to their ancient land and built a thriving community - country in fact - there was clearly no need to predict any return. Yet, to hear [some] Christians tell it, all those Old Testament predictions and yearnings were fulfilled in 1948. The fact that New Testament writers were silent about any such future return should go a long way to PROVING 1948 had NOTHING to do with some divine intention that was long predicted.
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Old 03-26-2012, 06:41 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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They also claim that the prophecy has been 'fulfilled' because of Israel....whilst conveniently forgetting all the other parts of the prophecy that have NOT been fulfilled.
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Old 03-26-2012, 06:45 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
They also claim that the prophecy has been 'fulfilled' because of Israel....whilst conveniently forgetting all the other parts of the prophecy that have NOT been fulfilled.
Yeah, that's a whole other area of criticism.
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:48 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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Mmmm yes, I was of the same belief at one time too, that 1948 fulfilled prophecy and I was quite adamant about it. Now, I don't believe one word of the Bible so of course all of that has fallen by the wayside. It just seems so ridiculous now to put so much stock into a book that contradicts itself all over the place and then try to fit "prophecies" from it to modern day happenings. It's quite a stretch to make it fit anything that has happened in our day since it was written 2000 years ago!!
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
I never noticed this when I was a Christian (who used to believe the creation of the state of Israel in 1948 was biblical fulfillment), but a few years back I noticed that the New Testament is practically MUM about some future return. IT is no surprise that predictions are relegated to the Old Testament while the Jews were exiled in Babylon but once we get to the New Testament, centuries after Jews were allowed back to their ancient land and built a thriving community - country in fact - there was clearly no need to predict any return. Yet, to hear [some] Christians tell it, all those Old Testament predictions and yearnings were fulfilled in 1948. The fact that New Testament writers were silent about any such future return should go a long way to PROVING 1948 had NOTHING to do with some divine intention that was long predicted.
~ It's because of the 'false doctrine'
the church accepts from Israel of a 3rd Temple.

When even their own Prophet Haggai 2:9
told of only a 'Former' & 'Latter Temple'.
That's Two Temples which they've already had.
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:15 AM
 
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Part of that was the Christian's adoption of the idea that they were the new "spiritual" Israel, and that the OT was superseded by the NT, I think. The Jews had lived in Diaspora conditions for a long time, and not all Jews yearned to return to their homeland, or even lived in Judea. Even in the OT, many Jews remained in Babylon, Egypt and other places and established thriving communities who had no desire to return to their "homeland". Only certain Jews made the return journey to begin with.

The Apocalyptic literature in the OT was composed late (Daniel was probably finished around 150 BC), and was not adopted by everyone as the answer to the theodicy question (that perceived innocent suffering was not evidence of God's injustice, but rather of an evil force active in the world who would be punished in the eschaton - where everything would be set right again). Some have suggested that Jesus was Apocalyptic (and I tend to agree with that, especially when one reads the Gospel of Matthew) - predicting the end of the world, but his idea of the Kingdom of Heaven was a difficult one to grasp. It seems as if he wished to reject the idea of an earthly Kingdom of Power in which the Nations (the non-Jews) were "blessed" because of the Jews.

For a stunning (and disturbing) look at the end-times as predicted by one prophet, see Isaiah 34 and the images of Yahweh destroying the Nations (the non-Jews), and trodding upon them like grapes in a wine-press (thus giving us some nice bloody imagery). In the chapter, Yahweh's sword feasts upon the slain and drinks the blood of the fallen. Oh yeh - if anyone is still clinging to this prophecy (and some still are, unfortunately), it's not only a scary thought, but tends to throw a spanner into the Christian idea that they are the new "spiritual" Israel. They (the Christians who hold this view) just might find themselves tasting the sting of Yahweh's sword as part of the Nations. Even so - that people still cling to these Nationalistic ideas is a disturbing thought, and one that will prohibit any sort of peace in the Middle East. Thankfully, not all Jews hold to such ideas.

Darn Scofield and his crazy ideas about the end-times! Much of the talk concerning 1948 can be traced back to him, and his influential version of the Bible.
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Old 03-26-2012, 09:32 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Part of that was the Christian's adoption of the idea that they were the new "spiritual" Israel, and that the OT was superseded by the NT, I think. The Jews had lived in Diaspora conditions for a long time, and not all Jews yearned to return to their homeland, or even lived in Judea. Even in the OT, many Jews remained in Babylon, Egypt and other places and established thriving communities who had no desire to return to their "homeland". Only certain Jews made the return journey to begin with.

The Apocalyptic literature in the OT was composed late (Daniel was probably finished around 150 BC), and was not adopted by everyone as the answer to the theodicy question (that perceived innocent suffering was not evidence of God's injustice, but rather of an evil force active in the world who would be punished in the eschaton - where everything would be set right again). Some have suggested that Jesus was Apocalyptic (and I tend to agree with that, especially when one reads the Gospel of Matthew) - predicting the end of the world, but his idea of the Kingdom of Heaven was a difficult one to grasp. It seems as if he wished to reject the idea of an earthly Kingdom of Power in which the Nations (the non-Jews) were "blessed" because of the Jews.

For a stunning (and disturbing) look at the end-times as predicted by one prophet, see Isaiah 34 and the images of Yahweh destroying the Nations (the non-Jews), and trodding upon them like grapes in a wine-press (thus giving us some nice bloody imagery). In the chapter, Yahweh's sword feasts upon the slain and drinks the blood of the fallen. Oh yeh - if anyone is still clinging to this prophecy (and some still are, unfortunately), it's not only a scary thought, but tends to throw a spanner into the Christian idea that they are the new "spiritual" Israel. They (the Christians who hold this view) just might find themselves tasting the sting of Yahweh's sword as part of the Nations. Even so - that people still cling to these Nationalistic ideas is a disturbing thought, and one that will prohibit any sort of peace in the Middle East. Thankfully, not all Jews hold to such ideas.

Darn Scofield and his crazy ideas about the end-times! Much of the talk concerning 1948 can be traced back to him, and his influential version of the Bible.
Oh yeah, Scoffield and his forerunner, Darby.

Yes, the "spiritual Israel" bit is one thing, but the thought is that the physical return of the Jews (the birth of Israel) was predicted by the Old Testament prophets. True, there were many Jews who did NOT return from exile, but I was just pointing out that was rather odd that if a future return (post New Testament) was such a critical ingredient in the "End Times," then why is it that it gets NO coverage in the New Testament. All the hoopla surroudning "End Times" apocaplyptic talk in the New Testament speaks of everything else BUT a returning Israel.

Of course [some] Christians will bring up the 'fig tree' parable, but that is hardly convincing. Besides, it is VERY clear that Jesus and the other NT writers who use apocalyptic language were referring to THEIR times and not events 2,000 years (and counting) into the future.
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:15 AM
 
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You all might find it interesting that Torah Observant Jews refuse to declare the long Roman exile (from 70 ACE to now) over. Even though a majority of the world's Jews now live in Israel, we are still very much in exile to this very day. We Jews pray every day (3 times a day, in fact) that this long unbearable exile will come to an end. But it will not end until we can rebuild the third Beis Hamigdosh on the Temple Mount in Jersusalem. And as of me typing this post, there's a big mosque sitting on the Temple Mount right now, and Jews are forbidden (we forbid ourselves) from even stepping foot atop the Temple Mount, for fear we'll contaminate a holy spot with our unholy selves. When moschiach comes, he'll tell us how to re-establish the Sanhedrin and then rebuild the third temple. At that times, we'll be able to declare the exile over.
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
You all might find it interesting that Torah Observant Jews refuse to declare the long Roman exile (from 70 ACE to now) over. Even though a majority of the world's Jews now live in Israel, we are still very much in exile to this very day. We Jews pray every day (3 times a day, in fact) that this long unbearable exile will come to an end. But it will not end until we can rebuild the third Beis Hamigdosh on the Temple Mount in Jersusalem. And as of me typing this post, there's a big mosque sitting on the Temple Mount right now, and Jews are forbidden (we forbid ourselves) from even stepping foot atop the Temple Mount, for fear we'll contaminate a holy spot with our unholy selves. When moschiach comes, he'll tell us how to re-establish the Sanhedrin and then rebuild the third temple. At that times, we'll be able to declare the exile over.
Where is your scripture of a 3rd Temple?
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Even though a majority of the world's Jews now live in Israel,
You sure about that?? I thought only about 40% of Jews lived in Israel.
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