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Whats wrong with a Jew believing in Jesus? He was a pretty smart rabbi...and out shone Moses or Abraham.....don't get it why the Jews don't like the king of the Judeans (Jews) as Pilate once called him...Even the Muslims see Jesus as a great prophet....after all Christianity is a Jewish sect...is it not?
His parables in the Christian scripture show him to be a smart man (not necessarily a rabbi though, why do people always say that?) anyway even if someone is a smart rabbi does not make them the messiah (take THAT chabad!) Certainly not outshining moses, a very different figure,
Why should we care what Pilate called him? He was not in fact the king of the Jews.
Nor do we much care what the muslims see him as - we are not muslims.
As for it originating as a sect of Judaism, do christians like everything that may have begun as a sect of christianity?
Just for s&g's what say you my friend to these findings:
Reporting in the April issue of PLoS Genetics, the researchers found that modern day Jews can attribute about 3% to 5% of their ancestry to sub-Saharan Africans, and that the exchange of genes between Jews and sub-Saharan Africans occurred approximately 72 generations, or about 2,000 years, ago.
Priya Moorjani, a doctoral student in Reich’s lab who led the research, was surprised that the degree of African DNA was so consistent across the various Jewish populations. She had expected, for example, that North African and Middle Eastern Jews would have a greater degree of genetic mingling than Europeans, based on their geographic proximities.
So the findings, Moorjani said, may point to a shared ancestry among the various Jewish groups. “It’s definitely suggestive that most Jewish populations have a common ancestral population,” she said.
Actually, i've not seen that, and do NOT know what it means. Im reluctant as an amateur to jump from a summarized (and probably simplified) genetic result to speculated population history. I DO know that Jared Diamond argues for an east african origin for the semitic language family (based on the greater number of sub families in the ethiopian region) but THAT would mean a tie much earlier than 2000 years ago (because west semitic broke from ethiopic much earlier - like well before ugaritic inscriptions, hence much more than 4000 years ago). Could be some connection via Egypt (depending on the variability of the dates) or might be connected to groups like the Edomites who converted to Judaism during the Hasmonean era (Ive always understood the Edomites et al to be of similar "stock" as Israelites, but there could be something I do not know). AFAIK in that era there was no africa to mideast slave trade such is in later eras, so thats probably not it.
....So I did some more reading on these Jesus-accepting Jewish groups, or those who try to preach the good news, etc., to Jews, and saw that there is *a lot* of anger on the part of the Jewish, Israeli, religious people about a basically Pentecostal [my emphasis -- Velcro] Jesus-pushing movement, also, because of the history of Jews not accepting Jesus and all that happened thereafter and thereof....It sounds very pernicious- to go around preaching and trying to convert people. It sounds, frankly, as rude as anyone trying to preach and convert anyone else (something Jews famously do *not* do).
I know I posted about this before, so hope if someone has something to add, they will do so, and please do not give quotes from the bible as something to add, because that is not what I am asking.
I don't know a lot about all these many "Messianic" groups, but I know enough to be glad I am associated with the group where I attend and am a member. I am Messianic. Note that I merely said "I am Messianic"; I did not claim to be a Messianic Jew. Modernly, many Jews agree that once one has accepted Yeshua as Messiah, they are no longer Jewish.
So I am Messianic, but not Pentecostal. Far from that. If anyone tried to practice modern Pentecostalism in my place of worship, they would be made very uncomfortable and be asked to "cease and desist." If they did not comply, they would be escorted out.
Furthermore, I do not actively go about trying to convert Jews. Although my place of worship is about 3/5 Gentile and 2/5 those born Jewish, people come as they are invited, both from the synagogue and from the church.
Not all Messianics fit within the description written here. In fact, many of us do not; it's just that yes, the others are the majority and yes, they are noisier about it. It is similar to the church, which has given great rise over the last 30 years or so to the Charismatic movement, often called "non-denominational.
Bluntly, in my experience, many of those coming out of the Charismatic movement, forming their "Messianic" groups, appear to be brought together by leaders who mainly have a desire to lead people, enjoy authority, and have an audience, calling themselves rabbis when they completely lack the education to take on that title. In my search for the group where I have attended since @ 1995, I have happened into some groups where I chose not to stay, because of their practices and/or lack of learning.
Sure, we believe in "Jesus." Sure, He is my Messiah. Sure, I worship with other Messianics. But the descriptions I have seen of such groups do not even come close to describing all groups. Such a description is much like assuming that all Christian churches are Roman Catholic.
Sure, we believe in "Jesus." Sure, He is my Messiah. Sure, I worship with other Messianics. But the descriptions I have seen of such groups do not even come close to describing all groups. Such a description is much like assuming that all Christian churches are Roman Catholic.
Hi Velcro, nice post. Very respectfully written. So as a Messianic, do find that you think of yourself more as a Jew with Jesus additions, or as a Chrstian with Jewish additions?
I have some experience knowing Chrstians who have added Jewish customs and beliefs to their religious practices, and overall, I'm comfortable with this.
The thing that pulls me off the rails is when these groups claim to be Jewish, and then have simply "completed" the deal by adding in Jesus belief. It feels like polluting the Jewish religion when people claim it possible to be Jewish AND believe in Jesus the man-god. Jewish and Jesus are oxymoronic when used together. but you said it nicely yourself:
Quote:
many Jews agree that once one has accepted Yeshua as Messiah, they are no longer Jewish.
The only word I would modify in your first sentence is the first word, "many." I would change that word to "All." It is impossible to accept Jesus as Messiah and remain Jewish.
First, thank you for being so nice about what I wrote. I have to admit that i did not expect that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop
Hi Velcro, nice post. Very respectfully written. So as a Messianic, do find that you think of yourself more as a Jew with Jesus additions, or as a Chrstian with Jewish additions?
Do I dare write "neither"? I believe that He has indeed made us one, removing the dividing wall, so it doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't matter to me, personally, and it doesn't matter in practice where I worship (which I do call a shul or synagogue, because it is so far from being a church in my experience).
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop
I have some experience knowing Chrstians who have added Jewish customs and beliefs to their religious practices, and overall, I'm comfortable with this.
So many are not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop
The thing that pulls me off the rails is when these groups claim to be Jewish, and then have simply "completed" the deal by adding in Jesus belief. It feels like polluting the Jewish religion when people claim it possible to be Jewish AND believe in Jesus the man-god. Jewish and Jesus are oxymoronic when used together. but you said it nicely yourself:
You'll forgive me if I write that to me, it's not? He so carefully followed Torah, only balking at some of the oral Torah. According to the Scriptures, His parents treated Him as a son of israel, and He continued that practice until death and, as I believe He did rise again, afterward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop
The only word I would modify in your first sentence is the first word, "many." I would change that word to "All." It is impossible to accept Jesus as Messiah and remain Jewish.
The first believers were Jews. They didn't all a sudden lose their nationality or circumcision. The new testament also says there were ten thousand Jewish believers and they were still inherently zealous for the law. Your idea is laughable. why don't you email Jews for Jesus and ask them if they are still Jews. A Jew does not lose his identity when believing. Jesus didn't all of a sudden lose His Jewish identy by being the Messiah. What does this have to do with the op anyway?
Out of respect to the current Genesis thread, I want to pull the off topic discussion in that thread about Jews for Jesus and put the discussion in the proper thread.
The summary from that thread is as follows. I say Jews for Jesus is a just a "cover" for their proper term: Chrsitains. These people are no more Jewish than my next door neighbor, who is a Southern Baptist. Eusebius says they are fully Jewish, just ask them (see the bolded statement above).
So let me step back and ask the forum as question. If a particular group's status is in question, would a proper way to determine their correct status be to ask that group itself (the one in question) and use that as definitive proof? Or would it be to ask the group the questionable group wants to be associated with (the Jews) if they accept these people as "one of their own?"
What an interesting and thought-provoking thread! My question is: what is the difference between "Jews for Jesus" and "Messianic Jews"? I ask this respectfully.
Where I'm coming from: I was born into a Christian family and attend a non-denominational church. I've always had utmost respect for Judiaism and, in fact have always been a bit envious of those born as Jews, Adenai's Chosen.Recently, since watching "Discovering the Jewish Jesus" on TV, listening to Rabbi Schneider's teachings, I've become very interested in Messanic Judiasm.
What an interesting and thought-provoking thread! My question is: what is the difference between "Jews for Jesus" and "Messianic Jews"? I ask this respectfully.
Where I'm coming from: I was born into a Christian family and attend a non-denominational church. I've always had utmost respect for Judiaism and, in fact have always been a bit envious of those born as Jews, Adenai's Chosen.Recently, since watching "Discovering the Jewish Jesus" on TV, listening to Rabbi Schneider's teachings, I've become very interested in Messanic Judiasm.
Messianic judaism is not a part of judaism and this person is not a jewish rabbi.
Messianic judaism is not a part of judaism and this person is not a jewish rabbi.
Messianics are Christian.....
Yep. Mr. Schneider sounds just like the pastor of our local messianic congregation; the only "rabbi" I know of ordained by the Southern Baptists and as Christian as they come.
Yep. Mr. Schneider sounds just like the pastor of our local messianic congregation; the only "rabbi" I know of ordained by the Southern Baptists and as Christian as they come.
He is not a real rabbi. Only those who are ordained as within Judaism are rabbis. Messianics are Christians not Jews.
This whole conversation should be over in the Christian forum since it is about those who believe in Jesus.
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