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OK, we need to call a truce. I'm only pushing you further away from the Torah with my comments. In the kiruv world, we often sheild those we work with from the truth until they are ready to handle it. And I've been wrong with bringing you a message way before you're ready to hear it. I truly apologize.
OK, we need to call a truce. I'm only pushing you further away from the Torah with my comments. In the kiruv world, we often sheild those we work with from the truth until they are ready to handle it. And I've been wrong with bringing you a message way before you're ready to hear it. I truly apologize.
So true because if being close to Torah makes me like you then I don't want to be that way. Sorry but there are many ways to be Jewish and those who make women walk on the other sidewalk and sit in the back of the bus and attack little girls because they are not dressed modestly enough. Those who spit on women and curse at them think they are following Torah too. Those who do not allow women to learn Torah and be Jewishly educated, I could go on and on.
It seems the closer one gets to Torah the more narrow they get and I want nothing to do with that.
I want a world where Jews get along with each other and don't judge each other and can see that even if we are different in our practice we are still Jews.
So true because if being close to Torah makes me like you then I don't want to be that way. Sorry but there are many ways to be Jewish and those who make women walk on the other sidewalk and sit in the back of the bus and attack little girls because they are not dressed modestly enough. Those who spit on women and curse at them think they are following Torah too. Those who do not allow women to learn Torah and be Jewishly educated, I could go on and on.
Please don't think the items you mention above have anything to do with the Torah. You err if you think so. And if you think that's how I am, I'm insulted, since you have nothing showing that to be the case, other than grossly unjustified assumptions. Spitting on people is clearly antithetical to Torah values, and if somebody does that, they are a bad person. Not sure why you think it has something to do with Torah observance or me?
Orthodox Jews put women up on a pedastool. The woman is the center of Jewish life in the family. The religion as practiced by Torah Observant Jews practically worships the woman. I personally view egalitarianism as terribly insulting to women. Why lower a woman down to a man's level by enforcing some arbitrary idea that all things must be equal, when clearly all things are not created equal. Women are superior to men in nearly all items of spirituality, and I can't see the benefit of stealing that from a woman simply because progressive ideas dictate that a woman must be 100% the same as a man in all respects.
Please don't think the items you mention above have anything to do with the Torah. You err if you think so. And if you think that's how I am, I'm insulted, since you have nothing showing that to be the case, other than grossly unjustified assumptions. Spitting on people is clearly antithetical to Torah values, and if somebody does that, they are a bad person. Not sure why you think it has something to do with Torah observance or me?
Orthodox Jews put women up on a pedastool. The woman is the center of Jewish life in the family. The religion as practiced by Torah Observant Jews practically worships the woman. I personally view egalitarianism as terribly insulting to women. Why lower a woman down to a man's level by enforcing some arbitrary idea that all things must be equal, when clearly all things are not created equal. Women are superior to men in nearly all items of spirituality, and I can't see the benefit of stealing that from a woman simply because progressive ideas dictate that a woman must be 100% the same as a man in all respects.
Flip you don't think they have anything to do with Torah but the ultra orthodox who behave this way are as sure of their observance as you are.
I am not saying that is how you are I am saying that when you see yourself as being a Jew in the correct way and other as not well, The folks that behave this way also see themselves as being correct in their observance.
That is my point.
Egalitarianism is insulting to you, and the idea that within my faith women are treated unequally is insulting to me.
My grandmother was born into a world that gave her few rights and she could not vote. People thought she had no right to be treated equally.
The progressive movements allow women to be fully included in the life of the community. Again that is why I am a part of my community and why I don't want to be a part of orthodoxy.
The progressive movements allow women to be fully included in the life of the community. Again that is why I am a part of my community and why I don't want to be a part of orthodoxy.
And the religious Jewish community says that men and women are created differently, and as such, should be treated differently. To impose an egalitarian approach is unfair and unnatural to both men and women.
And the religious Jewish community says that men and women are created differently, and as such, should be treated differently. To impose an egalitarian approach is unfair and unnatural to both men and women.
This is laughable, being treated in a fair and equal way, and to have the ability to be fully included in one's community is absolutely not unfair.
We have gone as far as we can go with this discussion.
This is laughable, being treated in a fair and equal way, and to have the ability to be fully included in one's community is absolutely not unfair.
We have gone as far as we can go with this discussion.
So you think the 90-95% of Orthodox women who remain in the movement their whole lives are just mindless little sheep who accept their inferior status? Have you ever met a frum woman? Orthodox women rule the roost in the frum community. Sure, there are 5-10% of them who want some version of 70s burn your bra liberalism and leave the community, but the vast vast number of frum women love the status they hold in their homes and in the community. They're confident enough in their status with their families and with Hashem to know that they don't need to be called to the Torah to feel good about themselves. They recognize that it would be degrading to them to comprimise their tznius just to arbitrarily claim they were equal (especially when equality for a frum woman would mean a lower status than they currently hold). There's literally no way for you to understand what I'm saying, as you don't have a Torah viewpoint from which to see these points. And sadly, this seems to be one of the biggest sticking points to Jews avoiding any higher level of Torah observance. I wish I had a way to magically have you see my viewpoint for even one single day, but i don't. I can see your viewpoint. It surely sounds good that women should be called to the Torah the same as men. But your viewpoint is deeply and profoundly un-Torahdik. Did you ever watch that Oprah report on the Chassidic women in Brooklyn? I understand they did a really nice job of explaining why frum women hold such high status in the frum community. Maybe worth a look, if you're not so militant about holding your own viewpoint to the exclusion of all others.
On that note. I have Shabbos preparations to help my beautiful frum wife, with her skirt down to her ankles in 100 degree heat, with. I'm about to walk into my home and smell the smell of baking challah. The kids will be taking showers and preparing their d'var Torahs for our dinner tonight, which will include both my parents, my wife's parents and a nice childless Jewish couple on my street who have nowhere to eat tonight. I'll be wearing my finest suit tonight as I welcome the melachim into my home before I say Kiddush. So you go burn those bra's and demand equality for every living thing on the planet. All good...
So you think the 90-95% of Orthodox women who remain in the movement their whole lives are just mindless little sheep who accept their inferior status? Have you ever met a frum woman? Orthodox women rule the roost in the frum community. Sure, there are 5-10% of them who want some version of 70s burn your bra liberalism and leave the community, but the vast vast number of frum women love the status they hold in their homes and in the community. They're confident enough in their status with their families and with Hashem to know that they don't need to be called to the Torah to feel good about themselves. They recognize that it would be degrading to them to comprimise their tznius just to arbitrarily claim they were equal (especially when equality for a frum woman would mean a lower status than they currently hold). There's literally no way for you to understand what I'm saying, as you don't have a Torah viewpoint from which to see these points. And sadly, this seems to be one of the biggest sticking points to Jews avoiding any higher level of Torah observance. I wish I had a way to magically have you see my viewpoint for even one single day, but i don't. I can see your viewpoint. It surely sounds good that women should be called to the Torah the same as men. But your viewpoint is deeply and profoundly un-Torahdik. Did you ever watch that Oprah report on the Chassidic women in Brooklyn? I understand they did a really nice job of explaining why frum women hold such high status in the frum community. Maybe worth a look, if you're not so militant about holding your own viewpoint to the exclusion of all others.
On that note. I have Shabbos preparations to help my beautiful frum wife, with her skirt down to her ankles in 100 degree heat, with. I'm about to walk into my home and smell the smell of baking challah. The kids will be taking showers and preparing their d'var Torahs for our dinner tonight, which will include both my parents, my wife's parents and a nice childless Jewish couple on my street who have nowhere to eat tonight. I'll be wearing my finest suit tonight as I welcome the melachim into my home before I say Kiddush. So you go burn those bra's and demand equality for every living thing on the planet. All good...
Yeah it is all good and your last sentence tells of your frustration at the idea that I don't accept what you say. I understand what you say and I understand orthodoxy, I just choose to not be a part of it........ You fall to insults once again...
I'm very much looking forward to actively participating with IRAC and the Women of the Wall when I get to Israel next April. Shabbat shalom.
I am so envious of you for being able to daven with the women of the Wall.... Anat Hoffman came to my Temple to speak a few months ago and she was inspiring.....
I am going to order my daughter a Talit from the women of the wall.
Do you see the green yet???
Last edited by Jazzymom; 07-06-2012 at 03:11 PM..
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