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This article linked below does a nice job, from what I can tell, of describing the "platforms" of the various Jewish denominations (Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc). I'll quote a few lines from the page, but it's a good read. I suspect there will be some disagreement with some of the author's conclusions, and I'd love to hear those.
We affirm that the Torah -- which includes both the Oral and the Written -- was created by G-d and taught to Jews. Changes are never necessary, as Torah Law can be applied to any situation.
Conservative:
Quote:
the Torah was created by people (Jews) with Divine Guidance. They believe that the Written and the Oral Torah were created at different times, by men, despite the fact that it is impossible to understand either of them without the other.
Each generation, according to the Conservative, is likewise given Divine Guidance to make "necessary" changes.
Changes are instituted to bring their thinking in line with the philosophical thought of the dominant culture, despite the fact that Judaism has never done this. (Though, of course, numerous deviant cults among the Jews have always done this throughout history. None of those cults exist anymore as such, if at all. Some examples were: The Sadducees, the Boethusians, the Chitzonim, the Hellenizers, and the Jewish-Christians. Christianity exists today only because that group split off entirely and became a completely different religion. At no time was any deviant philosophy accepted into mainstream Judaism.)
Reform:
Quote:
The Torah, they claim, is man-made entirely, and has been continually changed and adapted, despite all evidence to the contrary. Furthermore, despite the fact that the Torah and history show that Judaism has never tolerated dissenters to the Torah's opinion, they have the chutzpah (gall) to claim that Judaism has always been pluralistic, that the Torah supposedly has never demanded "uniformity of belief or practice." This, of course, is obviously baloney. Take one cursory look at almost any chapter of the entire Tanach (Jewish Bible), and you'll find recriminations against people who have even slightly deviated from the Torah's teachings, even if they adhered to everything else.
According to their latest platform, the Reform do not believe in Heaven or Hell, but they believe in the immortal soul. (I guess the immortal soul suffers from boredom for all eternity, since there is no actual place for the soul to go. <shrug>)
According to surveys taken in the past, a high percentage of Reform "rabbis" do not believe that G-d exists. Nevertheless, Reform believes, officially, that all Jews have an obligation (who created this obligation, I cannot imagine) to study "the traditions," and then choose what works for them. Ultimately, however, the Reform say it is more a question of "keeping in touch with your roots," than it is a way of serving Hashem. How this can be said to be the same as the original Judaism, I cannot imagine. It's not even similar to Judaism in any way. (But yes, they are still Jews, if their mothers are Jewish.)
The article concludes with this nice idea:
"All Jews are Jews, no matter what they believe or do, even if they belong to Reform, Conservative, or Reconstructionist congregations. The only exception is that if a Jew becomes an idolater he loses his connection to the greater Jewish "Family," though he is still required to repent and return to Judaism. For example, a Jew that becomes a Christian loses his identity as a member of the Jewish Family, even though he is still Jewish, and sins every moment that he is Christian. By Jewish Law, Christianity is permitted to Gentiles, but is considered idolatry for Jews."
This is probably a good opportunity to refine (and remind you all) on what basic tenants normative Jewish believes. A better way to state that, the Rambam wrote the 13 Principles of Jewish Faith, and these listed below are the bedrock of Judaism.
I recognize that other denominations of Judaism may believe other things, but the Torah guides the Jew to these 13 beliefs to affirm their Jewishness:
Quote:
THE RAMBAM'S THIRTEEN PRINCIPLES
OF JEWISH FAITH
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is the Creator and Ruler of all things. He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.
2. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is One. There is no unity that is in any way like His. He alone is our G-d He was, He is, and He will be.
3. I believe with perfect faith that G-d does not have a body. physical concepts do not apply to Him. There is nothing whatsoever that resembles Him at all.
4. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is first and last.
5. I believe with perfect faith that it is only proper to pray to G-d. One may not pray to anyone or anything else.
6. I believe with perfect faith that all the words of the prophets are true.
7. I believe with perfect faith that the prophecy of Moses is absolutely true. He was the chief of all prophets, both before and after Him.
8. I believe with perfect faith that the entire Torah that we now have is that which was given to Moses.
9. I believe with perfect faith that this Torah will not be changed, and that there will never be another given by G-d.
10. I believe with perfect faith that G-d knows all of man's deeds and thoughts. It is thus written (Psalm 33:15), "He has molded every heart together, He understands what each one does."
11. I believe with perfect faith that G-d rewards those who keep His commandments, and punishes those who transgress Him.
12. I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah. How long it takes, I will await His coming every day.
13. I believe with perfect faith that the dead will be brought back to life when G-d wills it to happen.
I'm not Jewish, and therefore pretty much have no say in the matter, but the author writes so bitterly and with such disdain for non-Orthodox denominations that I'm tempted to just dismiss him altogether.
I'm not Jewish, and therefore pretty much have no say in the matter, but the author writes so bitterly and with such disdain for non-Orthodox denominations that I'm tempted to just dismiss him altogether.
I don't disagree with you, Fillmont. But his views are basically the truth, from what I can tell. I'm hoping some of my fellow Jewish posters here who are not Orthodox will be able to tell me some of what he says is untrue (not just disdainful in approach).
If the author is guilty of being salty in his speech, then that's on him. But if the essense of his points are true, then that's a bigger story...
I'm not Jewish, and therefore pretty much have no say in the matter, but the author writes so bitterly and with such disdain for non-Orthodox denominations that I'm tempted to just dismiss him altogether.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop
I don't disagree with you, Fillmont.
I'm hoping some of my fellow Jewish posters here who are not Orthodox...
They would be wise to ignore the quoted source and the thread altogether.
Perhaps if the OP were really interested in learning the view of others they would just ask rather
than to "throw down a gauntlet" of what they assert is the truth and "ask" them to challenge it.
Salty indeed.
Last edited by MrRational; 07-26-2012 at 10:49 AM..
They would be wise to ignore the quoted source and the thread altogether.
Perhaps if the OP were really interested in learning the view of others they would just ask rather
than to "throw down a gauntlet" of what they assert is the truth and "ask" them to challenge it.
Salty indeed.
MrRational, the ideas in the OP come directly from the "denominations" themselves. I'm not throwing down the gauntlet, as you say, I'm simply using the author to paraphrase the stated positions of those movements. Those are not my interpretations of how these Jews believe. Those are the beliefs of the alternative denominations themselves.
If a Reform or Conservative Jew is to tell me that Judaism makes no claim that the Torah was given to Moses and the Jewish people by Hashem, then that's what they believe. It's not a normative Jewish belief, but it is indeed theirs. And as the article states, they can still be Jewish with those beliefs. The second post with Rambam's 13 principles are the core beliefs of normative Judaism. From my experience here, it appears as if alternative and modern progressive forms of Jewish belief don't hold those to be true either. I suspect even if a Jew does not believe in the basic requirements of Jewish faith, they too can still remain Jewish with their alternative belief system. Just so long as they do not accept avodah zara (separating their belief from their fellow Jews by accepting alternative views that are in direct contrast to Judaism).
MrRational, the ideas in the OP come directly from the "denominations" themselves. I'm not throwing down the gauntlet, as you say, I'm simply using the author to...
...to function as your gautlet.
Surely in all your wisdom and knowledge on the topic you could have found other sources that make
these sorts of statements. YOU chose this one because the "disdain and bitterness" suits.
Surely in all your wisdom and knowledge on the topic you could have found other sources that make
these sorts of statements. YOU chose this one because the "disdain and bitterness" suits.
Perhaps. These movements have altered the original documents and have built their practices to support that abberation. But here's the key: I could live with that, if it were not for the fact that they have begun to claim that their altered version has existed from day 1, and actually supercedes the original religion in favor of this abberated form.
I can understand when a Jew feels unable or possibly even unwilling to live by precepts of the Torah. It's tough at times - I know. But I can't understand when that same Jew comes to say their altrernate Jewish way is actually THE way, and that those who practice the religion closer to its original form are wrong, archaic, or worse...
How would you have me re-state that in a more touchy feeling cumbaya form?
MrRational, the ideas in the OP come directly from the "denominations" themselves. I'm not throwing down the gauntlet, as you say, I'm simply using the author to paraphrase the stated positions of those movements. Those are not my interpretations of how these Jews believe. Those are the beliefs of the alternative denominations themselves.
No, they don't. They come from the author's opinions of what he has read on those sites. If he (and you) were actually interested in understanding what other Jews believed, then he (and you) would be much better served by actually speaking to those Jews and listening to what they have to say.
I wonder which rabbis and scholars of those movements did he sit down with and speak to? Which books and essays by recognized leaders in those areas did he read? How many congregations did he visit so he could speak to the Jews who practice there and understand what they actually believe?
And I find it extremely sad, becaused I find the same type of mentality in the other streams of Judaism when it comes to orthodoxy; people will see a few narrow- minded orthodox Jews who make bad assumptions and refuse to open their eyes to reality, and they think all of orthodoxy is the same.
I'm all ears. I believe essentially the same as the author referenced in the OP. But I'm wide open to the idea that he may be wrong, or too assumptive. Me, too.
There shouldn't be anything narrow or sad about that? Please, just answer. I want to hear. Are you afraid of my responses? That I'll tell you your beliefs are not normative Jewish belief? I think you all know that already to be the case. That doesn't mean I don't honestly want to know if you agree with the OP's views on the denominations, or if you feel you differ from those.
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