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I have enormous respect for Talmud. But I am also aware of two interrelated truths: (a) it is an interplay of often conflicting opinions and recollections, and (b) it is a human effort by people with limited knowledge. These people were making inferences based on the presumption that the pshat is, among other things, literally true.
Given the wide-ranging dialogue and debate that is Talmud, it is extremely difficult for me to believe that its authors ever intended that body of work to be viewed as (infallible) holy writ.
Perhaps this is for a different thread, but I agree with your assertion that "its authors (n)ever intended that body of work to be viewed as (infallible) holy writ."
However, I do believe the Torah shibal pe given to Moshe Rabbeinu was indeed "infallible holy writ," and I trust the mesorah that has delivered that oral Torah in an unbroken chain from Moshe to me. My Rav learned it from his rav who learned it from his rav back to Moshe rabbeinu, etc.
The Talmud was only meant to be a written guide to the talmid chachim to remind them what the mesorah says, and it's intended to be taught and learned "bal pe," not "bal ksav."
Perhaps this is for a different thread, but I agree with your assertion that "its authors (n)ever intended that body of work to be viewed as (infallible) holy writ."
However, I do believe ...
I understand that you belive these things. I disagree.
"With regards to the goyim (the other nations of the world), they are not required to follow the 613 mitzvahs. They only have an obligation to follow the 7 Noahide Laws. If they are following those 7 (which believing Jesus is the same or part of G-d is a violation of one of the 7), they too will have a share of Olam Haba, the world to come. The Rambam says that when moschiach arrives, the Jews will no longer accept conversions to Judaism, because we will not know who is sincere and who is just joining the "winning team." Our jobs as Jews, will be to be a light unto the nations, demonstrating to the goyim how to get closer to Hashem by doing His mitzvahs."
You're joking, right? Sorry, but I just popped in to take a look at what's being posted in the Judaism section and this thread caught my eye. I really don't think any Jew wants to get put away in prison for stoning their uppity son to death or for doing the same to adulterers. If we let the past dictate our present we have only ourselves to blame for continuing ancient religious warfare into our future forcing the next generations to suffer the same troubles as past ones. God is God of the living, not the dead, and the example is given of the three generations of Abraham, father, son, grandson, all receiving guidance from God but each one receiving that which was guidance for his generation, i.e., the basic Message stays the same but it's application fits the situation...sounds catchy..
Anyway, my thoughts as a Christian of Jewish descent.
Perhaps this would be more appropriate in some other forum ...
Oh, so my thoughts about a shared religious background aren't welcome here, eh? Even though I'm Ashkenazim and Mizraim descended through my mother and her mother and you don't think I should ask questions about basic Jewish beliefs? Why not is my first question to you. Second is, are you prejudiced against Christian Jews (no, I am not a "Messianic Jew")? Third is, why would a Jewish set of religious laws not be open to ethical critique? Fourth is, the messianic era is arriving and requires its own appropriate revelation, i.e., the past does not dictate the future. When it tries to do so, we witness violence as ancient religious warfare gets continued on through the generations because no one's taking responsibility for word idolatry, idolizing ancient men's words and allowing their ancient views to inflict harm on our modern world. Again, my opinions and beliefs.
Oh, so my thoughts about a shared religious background aren't welcome here, eh? Even though I'm Ashkenazim and Mizraim descended through my mother and her mother and you don't think I should ask questions about basic Jewish beliefs? Why not is my first question to you. Second is, are you prejudiced against Christian Jews (no, I am not a "Messianic Jew")? Third is, why would a Jewish set of religious laws not be open to ethical critique? Fourth is, the messianic era is arriving and requires its own appropriate revelation, i.e., the past does not dictate the future. When it tries to do so, we witness violence as ancient religious warfare gets continued on through the generations because no one's taking responsibility for word idolatry, idolizing ancient men's words and allowing their ancient views to inflict harm on our modern world. Again, my opinions and beliefs.
Good grief! Very well ...
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Originally Posted by arielmessenger
Oh, so my thoughts about a shared religious background aren't welcome here, eh?
Christian hubris is not welcomed here by me. Others can make their own evaluation.
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Originally Posted by arielmessenger
Even though I'm Ashkenazim and Mizraim descended through my mother and her mother and you don't think I should ask questions about basic Jewish beliefs?
My regards to your mother. But given ...
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Originally Posted by arielmessenger
You're joking, right? Sorry, but I just popped in to take a look at what's being posted in the Judaism section and this thread caught my eye. I really don't think any Jew wants to get put away in prison for stoning their uppity son to death or for doing the same to adulterers. If we let the past dictate our present we have only ourselves to blame for continuing ancient religious warfare into our future forcing the next generations to suffer the same troubles as past ones. God is God of the living, not the dead, and the example is given of the three generations of Abraham, father, son, grandson, all receiving guidance from God but each one receiving that which was guidance for his generation, i.e., the basic Message stays the same but it's application fits the situation...sounds catchy..
... she clearly did a poor job teaching you to distinguish between 'question' and 'condescension.'
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Originally Posted by arielmessenger
Why not is my first question to you.
Because "You're joking, right?" is not a question but, rather, an attempt to demean.
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Originally Posted by arielmessenger
Second is, are you prejudiced against Christian Jews (no, I am not a "Messianic Jew")?
No.
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Originally Posted by arielmessenger
Third is, why would a Jewish set of religious laws not be open to ethical critique?
I am not suggesting otherwise. Were your snide remarks posted in the parent forum or the Christian sub-forum I would have gladly given its content all due respect.
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Originally Posted by arielmessenger
Fourth is, the messianic era is arriving and requires its own appropriate revelation, i.e., the past does not dictate the future.
Please preach elsewhere.
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Originally Posted by arielmessenger
Again, my opinions and beliefs.
To the best of my knowledge the purpose of this subforum is not to provide a platform for your opinions and beliefs, and certainly not for your transparent effort to ridicule and demean Judaism. I would prefer that to pursue that agenda elsewhere.
Let us nip this in the bud. We are beginning to stray off topic. this is a good thread and most probably there will be differences of opinion. but let us all remember to keep all debate peaceful and related to the topic.
In the spirit of Peace let us now return to the original topic.
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Second is, are you prejudiced against Christian Jews
Must show Woodrow respect... must... keep...my mouth... shut...
With all due respect, ahem, I am up for any criticism of my Christian faith, the traditional form of which no critically thinking person in his or her right mind could embrace but the same goes for all Abrahamic religions in my opinion, Judaism included. This topic is about the meaning of the Messiah and the World to Come and that's what I'd like to focus attention on because I've discovered Judaism and Pauline Christianity have both lost the root meaning of the messiah, the anointed one. When astrology was forbidden because pagan religions used it Jewish and then Christian priesthoods lost the astrological connections to the Torah/Tanakh/Gospels, without which you just do not know what's going on spiritually. For example, do any of you know where the Torah concept originates? Or why "Moses" in Hebrew does not mean "Son" as in son of a god as it does in Egyptian?
.......But I did grow in size and age to become a prophet of God.
This says volumes on who you think you are.
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