Blaming them victim: the theological rot on the fringes of orthodoxy (dating, women)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
So according to Rashi (and not disputed by later commentaries), the combined name Hashem Elokim denotes that Hashem uses strict justice in order to demonstrate His mercy. I think this Rashi commentary is in direct support of the idea that even terrible events like the shoa (strict justice) are tools Hashem metes out to us mortals in order to accomplish His greater goal of mercy towards the Jewish people.
So, if we are back on the idea that the holocaust/shoa is a tool in order to accomplish the greater goal of mercy towards the Jewish people, what of the Slavs and Romani and homosexuals and mentally disabled and handicapped and prisoners of war who were also killed in the holocaust? I again ask: collateral damage, or were they also the recipients of god's mercy, despite not being Jews or the intended target for your god's mercy?
So, if we are back on the idea that the holocaust/shoa is a tool in order to accomplish the greater goal of mercy towards the Jewish people, what of the Slavs and Romani and homosexuals and mentally disabled and handicapped and prisoners of war who were also killed in the holocaust? I again ask: collateral damage, or were they also the recipients of god's mercy, despite not being Jews or the intended target for your god's mercy?
I would suspect they, just like the Jews in Europe of that time period, did not merit Hashem's protection. A bad guy rose to power, G-d looked at the entire situation (Jews and non) and perhaps He decided He would let the situation continue, and that down the road, all parties involved would learn from it and adjust accordingly (of course I can't know for sure what Hashem thinks, so this is my best guess based on my learnings).
I think where many in this forum are struggling is how can G-d allow bad things happen to good people? Of course, that's one of the fundamental questions mankind has faced for thousands of years, and I'll leave that for the experts to discuss.
Those who follow Islam believe life is a test and learning time. For that reason we face a physical existence and in this physical existence it is the Will of G_D that all things be allowed to happen in accordance with natural occurrences and the choices we make in life. Sometimes we all suffer as the result of the choices of some people and when that happens our test is how we act because of them.
Overall it is not what happens to us that matters, it is how we let it affect our Faith that is of the greater importance. In other words adversity can increase our faith if we let it do so.
On second look, our views may be closer than I thought.
There's a difference between G-d allowing something evil to happen (free will) and actively controlling somebody's brain and making them do something (not the case). Free will is still very much in play. Jews were not doing Hashem's will, therefore we were on our own when Hitler came to power. G-d could have stopped Hitler, but since He felt there was some "value" in allowing him to do his thing, He chose not to. There are plenty of lessons one can learn from the shoa - each on his own level.
And BTW, this is isn't so different than Hashem allowing the nations to destroy the first and second Beis Hamigdosh, and the millions of Jews who were killed during those times. Hashem didn't kill anybody - the people killed each other. Hashem simply decided to sit that one out, as the people did not merit Hashem's intervention.
Sometimes my kids make mistakes and I correct them, or fix the mistake. Sometimes I let their mistakes play themselves out, becuase I'd rather they learn from the mistakes, rather than daddy always fixing it for them.
OK, I see what you're saying. Thanks for the clarification. I can't wrap my mind around it, but I understand it better. I think I have a hard time with the innocent people that died brutal deaths as "collateral damage". Even if the parents or grandparents were doing the wrong things, why would children have to be punished? Or, perhaps that wasn't Hashem's intention, but it happened. There's a back and forth argument against free will vs. everything under Hashem's control (or even a mixture of both). Again, I'm respectfully disagreeing.
I think it must be a Chrstian concept this whole idea of "G-d loves us all and always goes out of his way to make us feel loved." I think the Chrstian god is a very lovey dubby god, and Jews who are caught up in that mindset can't fathom the idea that G-d sometimes delivers VERY strong and harsh messages to us humans. And not only that, He expects WAY more from us Yidden than he does from anybody else. Our reward is much greater, but so are the expectations.
That's understandable that you might think that, but I'll weigh in on this one. They (formerly "we") believe in a loving but angry and vengeful G-d, but (and this is crucial) each person pays for his or her own mistakes in the end. He does deliver strong and harsh messages - but not to innocents. Certainly, He has the discretion and the power to intervene on an individual basis so that the message is clear.
An interesting discussion at any rate. I hope you and your family, as well as everyone here potentially affected by Hurricane Sandy, are safe and well.
Whether we are dealing with author or catalyst I don't know. Whether we are dealing with intended or unintended consequences I don't know. If there is Preternatural Agency, I fully suspect that anything we might say about It is necessarily flawed anthropopathic projection.
So do you contend that there is still the possibility that god did in fact plan for the holocaust, and other tragedies both large and small, to be lessons or punishments to those who suffer them? Is your disagreement with theflipflop then that one shouldn't make such assumptions, as it is impossible to know?
Let me try this again: I fully suspect that anything we might say about Preternatural Agency is necessarily flawed anthropopathic projection.
So, for example, what is meant by the idea that God plans? What are its implications? Does planning involve consideration? ... selection? ... duration? Is it driven by human-like emotion? Why should we think so? But, if not human emotion, what? Does the concept of 'motivation' even map to such an Agency?
"So you contend that there is still a possibility" is precisely backwards. I contend that there is no sound ontological or epistemological basis for inferring possibility.
I would suspect they, just like the Jews in Europe of that time period, did not merit Hashem's protection. A bad guy rose to power, G-d looked at the entire situation (Jews and non) and perhaps He decided He would let the situation continue, and that down the road, all parties involved would learn from it and adjust accordingly (of course I can't know for sure what Hashem thinks, so this is my best guess based on my learnings).
The only thing about this is the "message" is so open to interpretation by man, and that's a problem. Look at (I think) Jerry Falwell. Didn't he claim that AIDS was G-d's punishment to homosexuals? That's a slippery slope. Let's take it one step further, and invoke my favorite arguing point, Fred Phelps of the WBC. He pickets dead soldiers, saying it's punishment for homosexuality. Christians look at the Shoah and some say it's because we didn't accept Jesus. Some Orthodox Jews look at the same Shoah and state that it's G-d's punishment for the Reform movement. Someone else could say something different.
It'd be so much more clear if we just learned from our own mistakes and didn't have to learn a lesson from someone's crazy, evil whims. What lesson did we learn from some of the sadistic acts of evil that were perpetrated on the millions who suffered? Some say the lesson is "never forget" and "never let genocide happen again". Yet, it happens again and again.
The bottom line is, tzadiks are always going to try to see a lesson, some way they will try to improve, out of anything. And it will happen irregardless of whether some person like Hitler that didn't even deserve to live exists or not. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, that's just my simplistic view. A very simplistic view, I realize. In my eyes, Hitler helped nothing, he wasn't worth me trying to learn any lesson except for the fact that if they come for Jews again, we'll make certain we're prepared.
Let me be absolutely clear for you: Rape is rape. It's terrible. Hashem does not condone it or use it as a "tool" to teach us Jews anything. It's what terrible human beings sometimes do to each other. Now will you stop slandering Torah Jews? Please?
While in others you pontificate ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop
I would suspect they, just like the Jews in Europe of that time period, did not merit Hashem's protection.
These?
Really? And what of the hungry ...
Did they too not "merit Hashem's protection"?
To again quote Schneerson :
"What greater conceit and what greater heartlessness, can there be than to give a 'reason' for the death and torture of millions of innocent men, women and children?"
You keep quoting Rav Schneerson as if if he was some kind of messiah (sorry, I couldn't resist).
Jayhawker, if you would stop snipping single sentences out of many pages of discussion (acting like a Fox news reporter trying to manipulate people with misleading 10 second sound bites), and you would take a breath a re-read this entire thread, you'll see I've made some rational points. And I've brought a Torah proof to support my viewpoint (something nobody else in this thread has attempted to do). It's only on the basis of your out of context sound bites that anything I've said seems off base.
C'mon buddy, be better than that! If the Torah cannot support your viewpoint, I think it's a clue you need to think about this a bit longer.
theflipflop, you suspect the Shoah victims were to blame while you presume the rape victim is not. You suspect that Hashem uses ovens to teach Jews but bristle at the thought of Hashem using rape to teach women. And standing somewhere between the victims of the oven and the rape one finds the hungry child in Haiti and the murdered child in Itamar.
You dare to pick and choose what you attribute to God's love and what you attribute to Man's evil without ever clarifying, much less defending, your selection criteria. Both the pretense and the evasion are transparent ...
And, parenthetically, I have no 'buddies' who tell me the the victims of the Shoah were systematically expunged because they didn't merit Hashem's protection.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
if we just learned from our own mistakes and didn't have to learn a lesson from someone's crazy, evil whims. What lesson did we learn from some of the sadistic acts of evil that were perpetrated on the millions who suffered? Some say the lesson is "never forget" and "never let genocide happen again". Yet, it happens again and again. 
