Blaming them victim: the theological rot on the fringes of orthodoxy (dating)

[theflipflop]

Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule

theflipflop, you suspect the Shoah victims were to blame while you presume the rape victim is not. You suspect that Hashem uses ovens to teach Jews but bristle at the thought of Hashem using rape to teach women. And standing somewhere between the victims of the oven and the rape one finds the hungry child in Haiti and the murdered child in Itamar.

You dare to pick and choose what you attribute to God's love and what you attribute to Man's evil without ever clarifying, much less defending, your selection criteria. Both the pretense and the evasion are transparent ...

And, parenthetically, I have no 'buddies' who tell me the the victims of the Shoah were systematically expunged because they didn't merit Hashem's protection.

Again, re-read my posts, and you'll see I've made a distinction between acts of agression on individuals vs. acts of agression on an entire generation. Those are two entirely different discussions.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by theflipflop

Again, re-read my posts, and you'll see I've made a distinction between acts of agression on individuals vs. acts of agression on an entire generation. Those are two entirely different discussions.

Thank you.

And where, in your opinion, is that distinction supported by the Torah?

Also:

1. Acts of aggression on an entire generation could mean any number of things. Would it, for example, include the mortar barrage from Gaza?
2. And what about "acts of God"? Would you agree with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef that the Carmel fire was the result of insufficient Shabbat observance?

[theflipflop]

Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule

Thank you.

And where, in your opinion, is that distinction supported by the Torah?

Also:

1. Acts of aggression on an entire generation could mean any number of things. Would it, for example, include the mortar barrage from Gaza?
2. And what about "acts of God"? Would you agree with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef that the Carmel fire was the result of insufficient Shabbat observance?

I know it was a Rashi I read that made the distinction. And I think I recall your answer to that was that "sometimes Rashi gets it wrong." OK, but then that's the end of our discussion...

With Gaza, like any event that ever occurs, the Jews must start looking inward to try to understand if they have any culpability to the actions in Gaza. But in general, what I take away from Gaza, is that Hamas (with Jimmy Carter's support and blessing) has launched tens of thousands of mortars into Israel, and they have killed roughly a dozen Jews over the last decade. I read into that, there is some "merit" currently protecting the Yidden in Southern Israel. The stories of hashgacha pratis (devine intermention) where Jews should have been killed by Gazan mortars and were not is compelling!

With Rav Yosef and his comments on the Carmel fire - I'm an American Ashkenazi Jew, and Rav Yosef is a brilliant Torah scholar, but he is not my posek. Until one of my poskim make a similar statement, it's really a non-issue for me - you're not asking the right guy. But if you ask me if ALL Jews in Israel should be keeping Shabbos, well, I'm aware of NO heter that has ever been given for a Jew not to observe Shabbos (other than pikuach nefesh, etc). Every Jew in the world who does not observe Shabbos is violating the Torah, and we don't need a fire in Carmel to tell us that.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by theflipflop

With Rav Yosef and his comments on the Carmel fire - I'm an American Ashkenazi Jew, and Rav Yosef is a brilliant Torah scholar, but he is not my posek. Until one of my poskim make a similar statement, it's really a non-issue for me - you're not asking the right guy.

Fair enough. Thanks and shalom.

[1+1=5]

Originally Posted by theflipflop

You keep quoting Rav Schneerson as if if he was some kind of messiah (sorry, I couldn't resist).

Jayhawker, if you would stop snipping single sentences out of many pages of discussion (acting like a Fox news reporter trying to manipulate people with misleading 10 second sound bites), and you would take a breath a re-read this entire thread, you'll see I've made some rational points. And I've brought a Torah proof to support my viewpoint (something nobody else in this thread has attempted to do). It's only on the basis of your out of context sound bites that anything I've said seems off base.

C'mon buddy, be better than that! If the Torah cannot support your viewpoint, I think it's a clue you need to think about this a bit longer.

I agree that it's Torah based, however, man's interpretation of the message is not. You know I just had to throw that in there. Again. Because I'm convinced I'm right. ;-)

[theflipflop]

Originally Posted by 1+1=5

I agree that it's Torah based, however, man's interpretation of the message is not. You know I just had to throw that in there. Again. Because I'm convinced I'm right. ;-)

So I hear you. But I've never once met an Orthodox Rabbi who reads a Rashi and feels as if it's "man's interpretation." If Rashi brings a proof to any concept found in Torah, we do not have sufficient ability, knowledge or mesorah to say otherwise. Rashi heard it from his Rav, who heard it from his and so on dating back to Moshe Rabbeinu himself standing before the Ribono shel Olam on Mount Sinai. So when I qouted Rashi's commentary that the name Hashem/Elokim denotes that Hashem delivers His mercy via strict justice at times, if you or others cannot get your arms around the concept, the flaw is not in, how shall I say, Rashi's line of reasoning.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by theflipflop

Rashi heard it from his Rav, who heard it from his and so on dating back to Moshe Rabbeinu himself standing before the Ribono shel Olam on Mount Sinai.

Where does Rashi make such a clam?

[theflipflop]

Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule

Where does Rashi make such a clam?

God (Mt. Sinai ,= 1312 B.C.E.)

Moses (1272 B.C.E.)

Joshua (1245 B.C.E.)

Pinchus

Eli (929 B.C.E.)

Samuel (889 B.C.E.)

David (876 B.C.E.)

Achiah (800 B.C.E.)

Elijah (726 B.C.E.)

Elishah (717 B.C.E.)

Yehoyada (695 B.C.E.)

Zechariah (680 B.C.E.)

Hoshea (575 B.C.E.)

Amos (560 B.C.E.)

Isaiah (548 B.C.E.)

Michah (560 B.C.E.)

Yoel (510 B.C.E.)

Nachum (510 B.C.E.)

Chavakuk (510 B.C.E.)

Tzafaniah (460 B.C.E.)

Jeremiah (462 B.C.E.)

Baruch (347 B.C.E.)

Ezra (348 B.C.E.)

Shimon Hatzadik (310 B.C.E.)

Antignus of Socho (305 B.C.E.)

Yosi ben Yoezer and

Yosef ben Yochanon (280 B.C.E.)

Yehoshua ben Prachya and

Nitai of Arbel (243 B.C.E.)

Yehuda ben Tabai and

Shimon ben Shetach (198 B.C.E.)

Shmaya & Avtalyon (140 B.C.E.)

Hillel & Shammai (40 B.C.E.)

Rabban Shimon (10 B.C.E.)

Rabban Gamliel Hazaken (20 C.E.)

Rav Shimon ben Gamliel (50)

Rabban Gamliel (90)

Rabban Shimon (140)

Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi (180)

Rav, Shmuel, and Rabbi Yochanon (230)

Rav Huna (270)

Rabbah (310)

Rava (340)

Rav Ashi (420)

Rafram (443)

Rav Sam a B’rei d’Rava (476)

Rav Yosi (514)

Rav Simonia Rav Ravoi Me-Rov (589)

Mar Chanan Me-Ashkaya (608)

Rav Mari

Rav Chana Gaon

Mar Rav Rava

Rav Busai (689)

Mar Rav Huna Mari

Mar Rav Chiyah Me-Mishan

Mar Ravyah

Mar Rav Natronai

Mar Rav Yehuda (739)

Mar Rav Yosef (748)

Mar Rav Shmuel

Mar Rav Natroi Kahana

Mar Rav Avrohom Kahana (761)

Mar Rav Dodai

Rav Chananya (771)

Rav Maika (773)

Mar Rav Rava

Mar Rav Shinoi (782)

Mar Rav Chaninah Gaon Kahana (785)

Mar Rav Huna Mar Halevi (788)

Mar Rav Menasheh (796)

Mar Rav Yeshaya Halevi (804)

Mar Rav Kahanah Gaon (797)

Mar Rav Yosef

Mar Rav Ibomai Gaon (814)

Mar Rav Yosef

Mar Rav Avrohom

Mar Rav Yosef (834)

Mar Rav Yitzchak (839)

Mar Rav Yosef (841)

Mar Rav Poltoi (858)

Mar Rav Achai Kahana

Mar Rav Menachem (860)

Mar Rav Matisyahu (869)

Rav Mar Abba

Mar Rav Tzemach Gaon (891)

Mar Rav Hai Gaon (897)

Mar Rav Kimoi Gaon (905)

Mar Rav Yehuda (917)

Mar Rav Mevasser Kahana Gaon (926)

Rav Kohen Tzedek (935)

Mar Rav Tzemach Gaon (937)

Rav Chaninah Gaon (943)

Mar Rav Aharon Hacohen (959)

Mar Rav Nechemiah (968)

Rav Sherirah Gaon (1006)

Meshulam Hagadol

Rav Gershom Meor Hagolah (1040)

Rav Yaakov ben Yakar (1064)

Rav Shlomo Yitzchaki - ‘“Rashi’” (1105)


Jewish Lineage | Unbroken Chain of Torah Transmission | genealogy heritage | Mesora

[Jayhawker Soule]

NIce (yet questionable) laundry list. Now answer my question ... or not.

[theflipflop]

Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule

NIce (yet questionable) laundry list. Now answer my question ... or not.

Not sure your question is clear, if that list didn't explain it. What is clear, is that normative Judaism believes in an ubroken mesorah (tradition) that the very words Moshe Rabbeinu heard on Har Sinai have been passed down from teacher to student in an unbroken chain that extends to this very day. I would guess that some outliers in the progressive/reformist Jewish "movements" may believe otherwise, but that's of no concern to me. The list above is accepted by all of Torah Judaism, so that's what we have. Das Torah.