Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It's instructive to note the obvious: the rot is not limited to the fringes of Judaism. So, for example, we also get treated to: Muslim clerics say Sandy is God's punishment. Thankfully, "this was followed by a stream of outrage." It's rather sad that we see little of this outrage here.
... and we are left to wonder what these folks did to merit Hashem's wrath according to some.
It's instructive to note the obvious: the rot is not limited to the fringes of Judaism. So, for example, we also get treated to: Muslim clerics say Sandy is God's punishment. Thankfully, "this was followed by a stream of outrage." It's rather sad that we see little of this outrage here.
I think the lack of outrage, Jayhawker, is that becuase the Torah backs up the concept, even those Jews who are not connected to Torah in any way still have Jewish neshamos that connect them to the Torah. I think deep down, intuitively, we Jews understand that Hashem did indeed have a hand in the shoa and in Hurricane Sandy. Where the argument tends to get a bit hazy, is what message is/was Hashem trying to tell us? That Hashem participates in these types of world events, good or bad, appears to be the fact. What is he telling us appears to be the discussion point. But if we are indeed discussing what it all means, then we're being good Torah Jews, and we are doing Hashem's will.
FYI, the Muslims pray to very same G-d we pray to. Think of them as kissing cousins. I'm constantly amazed but no longer shocked when I see the similarities in their hashkafos and ours. It's no shocker at all that they beleive G-d had something to do with Hurrican Sandy (because He did).
I think we find that tragedy often finds the frum, observant Jew as often as it does the secular godless Jew. So if that's the case, then why bother observing the mitzvahs, if they fail to give you protection from these tragic world events? It's a tough question for sure.
The way I look at it, is that we all have challenges we face, each at our own "level." The observant Jew is not any better than the non-observant Jew simply because he holds by more of the mitzvahs. In truth, the observant Jew is likely held to higher degree of accountability by Hashem. We see this by our forefathers Avraham, Yitchok and Yaakov and their wives. They were "held to task" by Hashem for the slightest of trangrassions. Why? Becuase Torah is what makes one great. The Torah sharpens our middos and prefects our hashkafos. But with greatness comes scrutiny.
I can't possibly fathom the pain and terror those frum Jews in Coney Island must have gone through, and chas v' shalom anybody should say they were lacking in their avodas hashem in any way. We can't possibly know what was on hashem's mind when he sent that storm through their neighborhoods.
But I can tell you, that the outpouring of tzedakah to help these storm victims, coming from the frum communities around the US is amazing. And these are tough economic times, yet Jews with very little are giving what they can to help their fellow Jews. Perhaps that's the message Hashem wanted to send us - that goshmius (worldy items) we can't take with us to Olam Haba. They are nothing. meanningless! But the mitzvah of giving tzedakah is indeed something we can stand before HaKadosh Baruch Hu in the world to come and stand proud. Those frum Jews in Brooklyn? Tough stuff to see their pain... but the opportunity for avodas Hashem they've given Jews around the US and around the world is incalculable.
You come to this forum to teach Jews the main point of the Tanakh?
No, not Jews generally, just you. From what little I have seen of yours posts, you are more Liberal than Jewish. So let me explain victimhood from a liberal perspective. For Liberals, victims are always innocent and victimhood is to be celebrated. But, only certain groups get to claim victimhood. For example, women, as a group, are always victims, but men, as a group, never are. This is how liberals can dispense with any application of justice in deciding who they sympathize with.
The perspective of the Tanakh is almost the exact opposite of liberalism. Whether victims deserve their fate depends on the morality of their prior actions. This may apply at a group level which may result in innocent individuals suffering for the sins of the group. This is why we, as individuals, should try to associate with moral groups and then encourage further morality within our group.
I am Jewish and I don't believe this. You don't get to decide who is Jewish. I am not a secular Jew; I am a Recostructionist Jew.
Jubilada53, first and foremost, welcome to the forum. Stick around - we have some lively and informative discussions around here, and we welcome all Jewish (and many non Jewish) viewpoints. And you are right - I do not get to decide who is Jewish. Thankfully, the Torah does that very effectively for us.
So you say you do not believe the viewpoint I gave above your post. Would you like to say why? Perhaps you have a view that is held by more than just you. So far, all we know of your viewpoint is somebody named jubilada is a self-described Reconstructionist Jew and does not agree with a post of a guy named theflipflop. Please, tell us more... (but I suggest you do not post on Shabbos, which for most of us is only a few hours away - there are more than one in this forum who do not post on Shabbos, felling it's entirely inappropriate for Jews to be posting in a Jewish forum on Shabbos).
No, not Jews generally, just you. From what little I have seen of yours posts, you are more Liberal than Jewish. So let me explain victimhood from a liberal perspective. For Liberals, victims are always innocent and victimhood is to be celebrated. But, only certain groups get to claim victimhood. For example, women, as a group, are always victims, but men, as a group, never are. This is how liberals can dispense with any application of justice in deciding who they sympathize with.
The perspective of the Tanakh is almost the exact opposite of liberalism. Whether victims deserve their fate depends on the morality of their prior actions. This may apply at a group level which may result in innocent individuals suffering for the sins of the group. This is why we, as individuals, should try to associate with moral groups and then encourage further morality within our group.
The world must be turning upside down today, as i can't believe I'm the one coming to Jayhawker's defense (not that he needs my help). But fschmidt, your conclusions about Hashem's use of strict justice for the purpose of mercy I believe are correct, but your reasoning for getting there in you post a few before this one are suspect at best. Bring us a Torah proof to support your opinion. I'm not sure viewpoints on the fallicy of liberalism is an effective way to make your point.
I saw it in the Stone Chumash in parsha Lech Lecha. It's in the commentary of the section right after the Chumash discuses the war between the 4 kings against the 5 kings.
Thank you. Now I see the opportunity for me is to learn a lesson and get out my Chumash.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
