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Rather than argue the case on its merits, the Gemara records that Rabbi Eliezer called on the carob tree to support him, the flowing water to support him, and the walls of the study hall to support him. In response to his call, the carob tree uprooted itself and moved 400 amot (=cubits), the spring flowed backwards and the walls began to collapse - until Rabbi Yehoshua stopped them. The Sages refused to be influenced by any of these miraculous occurrences. Finally Rabbi Eliezer asked the heavens to support his position, and a bat kol - a heavenly voice - was heard to say "Why are you arguing with Rabbi Eliezer, whose rulings are always correct?" In response the Sages said lo ba-shamyim he - since the Torah was given to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai, decisions are no longer made based on heavenly decisions, but on the decisions of the Rabbis who interpret it.
As much as i look to my rabbaim for daily psakim (halachic decisions), this is the Torah support for the authority of the rabbi's in today's times.
I spoke to several qualified Rabbi's about this Gamara over this last Shabbos, read the Shottenstein Art Scroll translation and commentary over and over again, and did a bit more web research, and I did not see one single alternate explanation for the Gamara than the one I quoted above. This Gamara comes to tell us that Hashem gave us the Torah, and we Jews (the Rabbonim) have an obligation to interpret it as our mesorah tells us we should. And even if we occasionaly may stray from Hashem's original intention (and Moshe Rabbeinu's original teaching of the mesorah), that it's more important that we recognize the absolute right of the Rabbi's to interpret the Torah, even at the risk of sometimes getting it wrong.
The lesson I draw is that alternatives to Rabbinic Judaism, like Karaite Judaism, should be taken seriously by those who value truth over popular opinion.
The lesson I draw is that alternatives to Rabbinic Judaism, like Karaite Judaism, should be taken seriously by those who value truth over popular opinion.
That is more than a little interesting given that the Gemara is, if anything, a repudiation of the precepts of Karaite Judaism. It appears as if you've only managed to see what you want to see.
That is more than a little interesting given that the Gemara is, if anything, a repudiation of the precepts of Karaite Judaism. It appears as if you've only managed to see what you want to see.
Jayhawker is exactly correct. This Gamara specifically teaches us the authority of "Rabbinic Judaism," as you call it (that's a Chrstian term, btw), and ties this approach directly back to Moshe Rabbeinu standing on Mount Sinai hearing the voice of HaKadosh Baruch Hu Himself.
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No doubt an imminently fair and highly qualified sample.
Baruch Hashem, I have access to some of the biggest Talmud Chachim in the United States. So again, you are correct Jayhawker, they are indeed "an imminently fair and highly qualified sample" of rabbi's (sarcasm ignored).
Jayhawker is exactly correct. This Gamara specifically teaches us the authority of "Rabbinic Judaism," as you call it (that's a Chrstian term, btw), and ties this approach directly back to Moshe Rabbeinu standing on Mount Sinai hearing the voice of HaKadosh Baruch Hu Himself.
What term would you use for "Rabbinic Judaism"?
That this story is in the Talmud is exactly my point. If you accept this story (because you accept the Talmud), then you accept that majority rule (of rabbis) overrules truth (God). I am unwilling to accept the idea of human infallibility, either individuals or groups of people. I cannot put a group of rabbis above God/truth.
There is a very good discussion of this story in the video below by a Karaite starting at 22:00.
fschmidt, perhaps you should introduce yourself to the forum. It might be helpful for all of us to communicate more effectively if we knew a little bit more about where you're coming from. If it's helpful, I was born in a progressive Jewish home (my mother and her mother are Jewish) and as an adult I became more religious, and over the last 15 years have become a Torah Observant Jew who is shomer mitzvahs and Torah.
The reason your term "Rabbinic Judaism" jumped out at me in your earlier post, is that I've never met a Jew who uses that term. It's nearly exclusively the realm of Chrstians to say there is more than one type of Judaism (i.e., Rabbinic Judaism, Karaites, Saaduccees/Pharisees, etc).
There is only one Torah. Part of it is written and the rest is Oral (although the oral Torah has been written down in the form of the Talmud). That is normative Jewish thought - any other "version" is simply that - a version (or an opinion). One Torah. One Judaism.
And FYI: I did not click on your video above. I found the title to be very distasteful, causing me to immediately lose interest in anything the video might of had to say.
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