Christians forever grafted to the olive branch of the Jew! (believe)
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We Jews know that Jesus was a Pharisee, the priests were Sadduccees which practically made them non Jews. The Sadduccees were "in bed" with the Romans. And Paul was a non Jew who felt spurned by the Pharisees who rejected him, and so he and the later the gospel writers took out Paul's anger on the Jews in what did indeed become anti semitism. Continues to this very day.
Sheena, there's no hate in being unable to write the name of your religion. It's simply forbidden for us to do so. You might do better to ask questions vs coming to our forum to lecture us with your Chrstian point of view. We don't see the world thru the same lenses as you.
We have gone far off topic. A whole line of posts have been deleted. This is a forum not a battlefield. If anyone finds any post offensive, use the report button, do not reply to the post.
Promoting hate is not tolerated on this forum Not by anyone. As a mod my interest is that forum rules are followed, including the rules posted as the first thread in this section.
There are Two rules I am very adamant about enforcing.
One is there will be no bashing of any member. Posts are expected to address the topic and not the person posting.
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For these two rules I rely heavily on members using the report button, if anyone feels a rule is being violated I plea for them to use the report button and not reply to it.
Do you think the Sadduccees and the Romans were responsible, reasonable people just trying to keep the peace?
If there was an uprising among the people, it would reflect badly on the Roman overseer (Pontious Pilot?), so he wanted peace. The Sadduccees were in a position of power, so they also wanted to keep things as they were. I guess that was the situation in 30 AD.
It worked for awhile, but around 70 AD there was an uprising and the Roman troops came in and a lot of people suffered. Maybe they should have done what the Sadduccees wanted.
Do you think the Sadduccees and the Romans were responsible, reasonable people just trying to keep the peace?
If there was an uprising among the people, it would reflect badly on the Roman overseer (Pontious Pilot?), so he wanted peace. The Sadduccees were in a position of power, so they also wanted to keep things as they were. I guess that was the situation in 30 AD.
It worked for awhile, but around 70 AD there was an uprising and the Roman troops came in and a lot of people suffered. Maybe they should have done what the Sadduccees wanted.
It would be interesting revisionist history to say the Sadduccees and Romans were the good guys and the Pharisees were the bad guys. Oh wait, that IS the history the Catholic Church has given us.
The Romans did things like put their Jewish prisoners in stadiums with live lions and ask the entire commuity to come and see the lions tear the poor Jews to shreds. All the while, those evil Pharisees DARED to sit in their quiet study halls and have debates over whether one can gather corn on the Sabbath or not. Those corrupt Pharisees!
If a certain "guest" poster is still purusing this thread, perhaps she can see why I don't want my kids playing with the children of other Chrstians. That's not called hate. That's called loving your children enough to ensure they spend time around god role models. <cue Hiker's next post, which will be about "Numbers 31.">
SoulJourn, thanks for pointing out that passage. It is very interesting.
From the little I know, Jesus was a revolutionary, and people like that often criticize the ones in power.
I guess you are wondering if Jesus actually said those things or of the words were put in his mouth by later writers. To me, either answer makes sense. Revolutionaries like Jesus often say things like that, but they also could have been written by people who wanted to discredit the Jewish leaders.
SoulJourn:
Thank you for your insightful comments. Maybe you're right about revolutionaries saying things like that. It's a possibility, I suppose, that he may have been trying to reform the Pharisees, although it still seems a little severe to me. At the end of the "seven woes," he uses imagery similar to that used in the Tanach (Dt.32:11 & Is. 31:5), when he says: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem... how often I have longed to gather your children together, as parallel a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing (Mt. 23:37)." (Sort of like tough love.) It is interesting that the book I mentioned in a previous post (Sitting at the Feet of Rabbi Jesus), states that these seven woes almost exactly parallel a list, by rabbinical writers around that time, of seven types of Pharisees, "caricatured as falling into an error: legalism, pride hypocrisy, and so on. Only the last Pharisee, who serves God out of love, escapes criticism (p. 168)."
Hiker45:
The early Christian leaders were trying to sell their religion in Roman occupied territories, so it makes sense for them to blame everything on the Jews.
I don't know if this is true or not (I don't want to spread rumors), but I believe I read somewhere that Emperor Constantine had all the existing copies of the Gospels (and maybe some other NT writings)destroyed and replaced them with new (presumably edited) ones. I'll have to research that one.
Last edited by SoulJourn; 06-03-2013 at 10:50 PM..
We Jews know that Jesus was a Pharisee, the priests were Sadduccees which practically made them non Jews. The Sadduccees were "in bed" with the Romans. And Paul was a non Jew who felt spurned by the Pharisees who rejected him, and so he and the later the gospel writers took out Paul's anger on the Jews in what did indeed become anti semitism. Continues to this very day.
I agree with the first two statements, but Paul was definitely a Jew and a Pharisee. Paul was arrested in Jerusalem and speaking in Aramaic (the lingua franca of the Jews at that time), he says to the crowd of people gathered there: "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today (Acts 22:3)." Furthermore, later on, before the Sanhedrin, he says: "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead (Acts 23:6)." Because the Pharisees believe in the resurrection and the Sadducees do not, the former state: "We find nothing wrong with this man. . . What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him? (Acts 23:9)." There's no jealousy or hatred on Paul's part for the Pharisees, being not only a Pharisee himself, but the son of a Pharisee.
Another thing. In a previous post you said that in the end times, according to Christian eschatology, those Jews who don't convert will be killed off by them. I really don't know where you get that from! I would like to make it clear that I categorically don't believe in converting Jews! I think they're perfectly fine the way they are and, as God's chosen people, have a share in the world to come. I look to the Jewish religion as to a wise father. After all, it has been around much longer than Christianity and Christians would do well to try to understand, respect and learn from it. Judaism is not an inferior or incomplete religion, as, sadly, many Christians seem to believe. They should heed God's promise to Abraham: "I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed (Gen. 12:3)."
Also, taking up the olive tree motif again, I think it has some validity as a metaphor, regardless of grafting being prohibited in the physical realm. I think the olive tree could represent all Abrahamic religion. Although Abraham was not himself a Jew or an Israelite, he spawned Judaism, Christianity, Islam and even Rastafarianism, Mormonism and the Jehovah's Witnesses. They are all offshoots. And, come to think of it, it came about without any grafting! We may not all agree, but truly the knowledge of the One true God has reached the whole world, and for that, I am truly grateful!
Adon Olam be praised!
Last edited by SoulJourn; 06-04-2013 at 12:44 AM..
Sheena, there's no hate in being unable to write the name of your religion. It's simply forbidden for us to do so. You might do better to ask questions vs coming to our forum to lecture us with your Chrstian point of view. We don't see the world thru the same lenses as you.
I did not see Sheena's post, but I know from other posts of Sheena that she is not trying to proselytize. I think that she thought you were dissing Christians by doing that and perhaps also by not letting your children play with Christians.
I did not see Sheena's post, but I know from other posts of Sheena that she is not trying to proselytize. I think that she thought you were dissing Christians by doing that and perhaps also by not letting your children play with Christians.
I recognize that she may have felt dissed. But that does not change my desire to shield my children from non Jewish culture. If my kids play with the Chrstian kids next door, or the reform and conservative Jews across the street, I'm going to then have to contend with Justin Bieber, television, pre marital mingling with the opposite sex and all kinds of other morality plays I don't want them exposed to. I wish there was a way to do that without all my neighbors thinking less of me, but even that's better than assuming the risks of secular culture.
I agree with the first two statements, but Paul was definitely a Jew and a Pharisee. Paul was arrested in Jerusalem and speaking in Aramaic (the lingua franca of the Jews at that time), he says to the crowd of people gathered there: "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today (Acts 22:3)." Furthermore, later on, before the Sanhedrin, he says: "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead (Acts 23:6)." Because the Pharisees believe in the resurrection and the Sadducees do not, the former state: "We find nothing wrong with this man. . . What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him? (Acts 23:9)." There's no jealousy or hatred on Paul's part for the Pharisees, being not only a Pharisee himself, but the son of a Pharisee.
Another thing. In a previous post you said that in the end times, according to Christian eschatology, those Jews who don't convert will be killed off by them. I really don't know where you get that from! I would like to make it clear that I categorically don't believe in converting Jews! I think they're perfectly fine the way they are and, as God's chosen people, have a share in the world to come. I look to the Jewish religion as to a wise father. After all, it has been around much longer than Christianity and Christians would do well to try to understand, respect and learn from it. Judaism is not an inferior or incomplete religion, as, sadly, many Christians seem to believe. They should heed God's promise to Abraham: "I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed (Gen. 12:3)."
Also, taking up the olive tree motif again, I think it has some validity as a metaphor, regardless of grafting being prohibited in the physical realm. I think the olive tree could represent all Abrahamic religion. Although Abraham was not himself a Jew or an Israelite, he spawned Judaism, Christianity, Islam and even Rastafarianism, Mormonism and the Jehovah's Witnesses. They are all offshoots. And, come to think of it, it came about without any grafting! We may not all agree, but truly the knowledge of the One true God has reached the whole world, and for that, I am truly grateful!
Adon Olam be praised!
Just one quick idea. It's impossible that Paul studied at the foot of Gamliel, like the Chrstian gospels claim. Gamliel accepted only the finest and highest potential students (and only adult men, no kids) into his yeshiva. Paul's laughable inadequacy in making "Torah arguments" makes it impossible that he ever studied with and PhArisee of any ability, much less the great Rabban Gamliel.
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