What are the Messianic Prophecies? (believe, Christians, beliefs, Israel)
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Agree. I think we can look at documents, but the NT is fiction to me. Learning it is pointless because it'd take years of study to be able to refute arguments and it's not worth it to me. With all that Jews have to study, time is best spent studying the truth. Or enjoying good fiction novels like (insert your favorite author).
Agree. I think we can look at documents, but the NT is fiction to me. Learning it is pointless because it'd take years of study to be able to refute arguments and it's not worth it to me. With all that Jews have to study, time is best spent studying the truth. Or enjoying good fiction novels like (insert your favorite author).
Very well said. So many Jews are so remedial in their own Torah learning,that learning the NT is about the last thing on earth they should be doing. I think watching reality tv would be more insightful. Leave the NT to the Chrstians to read - its their document and has nothing to do with Jews.
The concept of Jesus as messiah or the Christos evolved into a completely different concept than that of the Jewish moshiach.
Consequently, comparing Jesus, the Christian messiah; "man made god;" or "god made man;" to Jewish concepts such as moshiach ben Dovid or moshiach ben Yosef or Eliyahu Hanavi, etc., is not possible.
It really is more than "apples and oranges..." It's more like apples and cruise ships. There is no comparison.
And, I have read and, in my humble opinion, it sounds plausible, that Saul of Taurus was a learned Jew who had a "Damascus Road experience" where he believed that Jesus was moshiach.
As a learned Jew, he knew that one of his duties was to TELL this "good news" to the gentiles. He was supposed to make the world aware that the Days of Redemption were here at hand.
It appears that non Jews had difficulties with this message of Judaism, especially the "being Jewish" part, so Paul truncated it to the essentials, adopting non Jewish beliefs in order to "save the world."
It appears (to me) that this was the argument between Peter and Paul until Peter had his non kosher animal dream, at which point, Peter also got on board and agreed that Christians did not need to be Jewish.
And thus, Christianity was born.
Then they started breaking each other's heads until Rome adopted Christianity as the State Religion and put the warring sects in their respective places, creating a beautiful theology of Man and G-d and Redemption....
It's an interesting question I think. I cannot speak to his credentials, but Sabbatai Zevi was widely accepted as the Messiah among the Jews ... until he converted to Islam of course. What qualified Zevi for this nearly universal acceptance as the Messiah? Simon bar Kokhba was hailed as the Messiah by some early on in his revolt against Rome. Was it because he was brilliantly successful at first? Shouldn't there have been other qualifiers? If so, how did he meet those qualifications and prophecies (at least temporarily)?
It's an interesting question I think. I cannot speak to his credentials, but Sabbatai Zevi was widely accepted as the Messiah among the Jews ... until he converted to Islam of course. What qualified Zevi for this nearly universal acceptance as the Messiah? Simon bar Kokhba was hailed as the Messiah by some early on in his revolt against Rome. Was it because he was brilliantly successful at first? Shouldn't there have been other qualifiers? If so, how did he meet those qualifications and prophecies (at least temporarily)?
These false Messiahs came at a time when people were desperate. Since daily life for many was terrible and they needed the Messiah so badly - it had to be it! Expectations were high and everything was "a sign" from G_d.
What qualified Zevi for this nearly universal acceptance as the Messiah?
Nothing. Except that Jews had just suffered the Crusades and were desperate for a savior. His acceptance was far from universal.
Quote:
Simon bar Kokhba was hailed as the Messiah by some early on in his revolt against Rome. Was it because he was brilliantly successful at first? Shouldn't there have been other qualifiers?
Because he met none of the qualifiers, he was disqualified.
These false Messiahs came at a time when people were desperate. Since daily life for many was terrible and they needed the Messiah so badly - it had to be it! Expectations were high and everything was "a sign" from G_d.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin
Nothing. Except that Jews had just suffered the Crusades and were desperate for a savior. His acceptance was far from universal.
Because he met none of the qualifiers, he was disqualified.
It does make sense certainly. Were either Zevi or Bar Kohkba born through Davidic lineage? Is that an absolute requirement or is there a certain amount of wiggle room on Davidic descent?
More to the point, what are the particulars that the Jews are looking for? How will they know the Messiah when he comes? I get that he is supposed to restore the Kingdom of David. How far does that need to go? Would conquest of David's empire at its largest suffice (see below) or is the expectation that he conquers the world? And aren't there supposed to be indicators of his validity prior to that? Is there a solid consensus among all sects on the particulars of prophecies the must fulfill?
I also remember that Zevi liked to sign letters and correspondences, "Your Lord G-d Shabbetai Zevi" or something like that. Now I think I understand the mindset that led to so many desperately clinging to Zevi's supposed Messiahship. Centuries of abuse and massacre coming from all directions. They were desperate. But is the Messiah supposed to be inherently divine? Something greater than human as Zevi apparently claimed to be? Or is that just part of the giant pile of contradictory nonsense that Sabbateans were willing to swallow in order to maintain their belief in Zevi's Messiahship? It certainly seems very similar to the Christian deification of Yeshua, but in Zevi's case he seems to be deifying himself.
Also, out of curiosity, are there still Sabbateans out there today or did that movement die out at some point?
And please bear in mind, I'm asking my questions with the utmost respect. I'm not posting this to proselytize. I'm genuinely curious.
As I mentioned, the description of Messiah in Jewish theology is relatively vague, abstact and open to interpretations. Same about hell or Satan. If you are coming from a Christian background it is hard to understand the Jewish approach. There is a big difference since Messiah, Satan, hell or afterlife are very concrete in Christianity. Actually Christianity cannot exist without Messiah.
How could Bar Kochba or ST be related to king David? With some elbow grease.... Christianity did something similar with Jesus. To emphasize it, he had to be born in Beth Lechem.
Are there any followers of Shabtai Zvi today? Not that I know of.
Back to Jewish Messiah: The scriptures leave it very open, although there were great interpretations throughout the ages. Read about Maimonides or Rabbi Nachman among others.
As I mentioned, the description of Messiah in Jewish theology is relatively vague, abstact and open to interpretations. Same about hell or Satan. If you are coming from a Christian background it is hard to understand the Jewish approach. There is a big difference since Messiah, Satan, hell or afterlife are very concrete in Christianity. Actually Christianity cannot exist without Messiah.
How could Bar Kochba or ST be related to king David? With some elbow grease.... Christianity did something similar with Jesus. To emphasize it, he had to be born in Beth Lechem.
Are there any followers of Shabtai Zvi today? Not that I know of.
Back to Jewish Messiah: The scriptures leave it very open, although there were great interpretations throughout the ages. Read about Maimonides or Rabbi Nachman among others.
Are there any absolutes at all then? Surely there must be a few things that vast majority of Jewish sects agree on, right? I'll certainly have to do some reading up on things as you say.
I do come from a Christian background, but I choose to keep an open mind avoid inflicting my notions of absolute truth on others. I've come to doubt many of the absolute truths that the Roman and Medieval Europeans decided were requirements for a person to be a "real" Christian. I also cannot for the life of me get my head around how horribly Christians have treated Jews through the centuries.
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where he believed that Jesus was moshiach.
