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Old 07-06-2014, 08:23 AM
 
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A Talmud chachum is a Talmud chachum. Doesn't matter what color their skin is or where their family originated from. We all should be working on improving our middos and our mitzvos. Anyone not doing that is heading towards spiritual oblivion.
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Old 07-07-2014, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Harrisburg, PA
2,336 posts, read 7,767,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Usario, you are correct that most Orthodox do not accept all Modern O conversions as valid. Bottom line, is if you convert but don't endeavor to observe the 613, then why convert? Jews are not permitted to place themselves into situations where they are going to for sure do an aveira. It's better to be B'nei Noach and rock their 7 Mitzvos than to fully convert only to purposefully transgress a whole slew of Mitzvos D'raisas.
As a convert (who converted with an RCA {Orthodox} Beit Din) this is an issue that I've spent many, many hours reading about. I've seen it played out in person, in various communities (both in the US and abroad). I've been down my own person journey. Here's my take (even though I'm not a rabbi...and I don't have the sources).

Conversion to Judaism has never been popular. The basic requirements for conversion as prescribed by halacha are few: kabbalat al mitzvot (acceptance of the mitzvot), mikeveh (immersion) and for men, brit milah (circumcision). Because of the present day state of Orthodox Judaism, the requirements to convert with an Orthodox Rabbi have grown substantially. Many of these changes have been implemented by tradition and under the guidance of great Torah scholars. You currently have to fulfill these additional requirements (such as living in an Orthodox Jewish community, living a committed Jewish lifestyle for some time, having a particular social status and home lifestyle) in order to successfully convert. However, they aren't required as part of the halacha in place to turn a non-Jew into a Jew.

One very controversial aspect of the conversion process is kabbalat al mitzvot. It is problematic for many reasons. #1 - no man knows what is really in someone's heart at the time of conversion. This aspect of geirut (conversion) is strictly between the ger and G-d. Most Rabbis will propose that if a new convert left the mikveh, and immediately went to McDonalds and then later that Sunday went to church to pose as a Christian, then yes, the conversion was invalid. However the situation gets more complicated if a great amount of time goes by....and/or the "averios" (transgressions) are not as serious (like a converted woman wearing pants in public). For example, there was a woman in my previous synagogue who converted. She married (a born Jewish baal teshuva), and was quite frum during her marriage. After 5 years or so they divorced, and she went off the derech. While I do not know her official Jewish position or how a rabbi would view her status (or the status of her two sons), I never heard any comments about her Jewishness being in question. In fact her son's have come back to the synagogue with their father, and I can't recall them being denying any synagogue honors due to their mother's actions.

#2 - It is not really feasible for a potential convert to learn all they need to know to be a good Jew before conversion. The classic story of Shammai and Hillel encountering a gentile who wanted to be Jewish. Shammai turned the gentile away when he requested that he teach him the entire Torah. Hillel responded, 'That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the entire Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and learn.'" And then converted him. Today, while we poskim with Hillel, we incorporate Shammai's approach by turning the potential convert away 3 times (or as some Rabbis put it, pushing away with one hand, and drawing nearer with the other).

#3 - There are many situations where conversion would in fact suit the individual...even without complete acceptance of mitzvot (what I'm about to say here is controversial, and NOT accepted by the majority of Orthodox authorities, but certainly by some). These situations include the conversion of minors/children; the conversion of a spouse in an intermarriage with a Jew, with children; conversion of Israelis with questionable Jewish status (especially those considered Jewish by the state, but not Jewish by the rabbinut); conversion of the handicapped; and the re-conversion of people who thought they were Jews due to a previous conversion, but it has now come to light that their original conversion may have had halachaic problems.

Sorry for being so long-winded. Conversion to Judaism is a very hairy topic. I've seen great joys in it...and great pain. From what I've seen, even in the Orthodox community, it's never been as simple as "If you don't want to be observant, then don't convert."
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Old 07-07-2014, 12:45 PM
 
864 posts, read 868,676 times
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Quote:
"If you don't want to be observant, then don't convert."
If you don't want to be observant, you CAN'T convert.
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Old 07-07-2014, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Harrisburg, PA
2,336 posts, read 7,767,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
If you don't want to be observant, you CAN'T convert.
It's not that simple. Feel free to read this blog post, or this article which discusses the Rambam's rulings on conversion. Also read page 5 of this document from the Rabbinical Assembly, where it says, "only the refusal to fulfill a mitzvah and not its non-fulfillment as a bar to conversion (Bekhorot 30b )

You do realize that in Jewish history, there have been many converts who were converted and lived in Jewish communities (which would have been Orthodox prior to the 19th century), who were not nearly as observant as your average Orthodox Jew today?

Last edited by MissShona; 07-07-2014 at 01:21 PM..
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Old 07-07-2014, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Harrisburg, PA
2,336 posts, read 7,767,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iwishiwerethin View Post
If you don't want to be observant, you CAN'T convert.
Also, I would re-phase that as saying "you CAN'T convert to Orthodox Judaism"
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Old 07-07-2014, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
938 posts, read 1,511,578 times
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FYI, MissShona, iwishiwerethin is ultra-Orthodox, which means that for her, morethodoxy (Open Orthodox), the Academy for Jewish Religion (non-denominational), and the Rabbinical Assembly (Conservative) might as well be Islam or Jews for Jesus.
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Old 07-08-2014, 06:01 AM
 
Location: Harrisburg, PA
2,336 posts, read 7,767,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
FYI, MissShona, iwishiwerethin is ultra-Orthodox, which means that for her, morethodoxy (Open Orthodox), the Academy for Jewish Religion (non-denominational), and the Rabbinical Assembly (Conservative) might as well be Islam or Jews for Jesus.
Thank you for pointing that out. However for those who may be reading this thread, and who are curious to see a variety of opinions from a variety of sources, I presented them.
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Old 07-08-2014, 06:42 AM
 
Location: No
467 posts, read 350,564 times
Reputation: 377
IMO, post 72 by MissShona could have been longer, not shorter. Great to see a post which gives out a LOT of useful information without assuming greater authority than is actually there.
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