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I'd like to understand more about why anti-semitism has persisted so long among Christians.
It seems beyond any proportion and quite a thin excuse that a group of Jews may or may not have played a part in condemning Jesus. The New testament description notwithstanding, Pontius Pilate was no wilting flower. If you believe Reza Aslan's "Jesus", he had already condemned several Jews to be crucified, plus as a Roman governor, he would not want to appear weak to his subjects.
But let's assume all that is true, and Jews in the first century caused Jesus to die. Don't the Christians still profess to believe in the Old testament? Where God says that the sins of the father shall not cause punishment for the children? So what explains the neo-Nazis today, the Nazis before them, the horrific pogroms in the Eastern Europe in the last few centuries, and going back even more, the crusaders murdering Jews on their way to wage the Holy War?
It is one thing to be weary of a "strange" religion (never mind that Christianity originated in Judaism and worships the same God - I think?), or suspect minorities because they don't "fit". Happens all over the world. But does not usually translate into a pattern of systematic murders.
Is it the success of Jews? A diversionary tactic by Christian (and Muslim) kings and dictators to direct the frustrations of their populace to an external whipping boy?
I get that irrational hatred cannot be fully explained by reason, but even a partial explanation would be appreciated. I have just about given up. But I think racists, Nazis, crusaders etc may be evil but not any dumber (except for the blind hate) than the rest of us. So what sustains their wrong beliefs?
I agree that you might want to consider re-posting this question in Christianity. I would ask if you wanted us to move it, but with the replies already in place, it might be best to re-post and, possibly, reword.
To answer the question, I think you need to take a step back and ask "HAS antisemitism persisted among Christians?" Yes, antisemitism persists, but the question is worded to sound as if it is the default among Christians to be antisemitic rather than the exception, and Christians who are not antisemitic might bristle at the implication and see an accusation.
You could also say that some Christians would not consider themselves antisemitic, but still, they likely have incorrect perceptions about Jews born of ignorance, not malice. There are others who would not see what they consider their duty to try to convert you as antisemitism, although personally, I think that falls under the category.
And then there are outright antisemitic people, individually or in groups, some of whom you noted above. I've been a mod here for less than a year, and trust me, they aren't far away.
Anecdotally, I think a lot of Christians are probably like my Aunt Ruth, who, back in the Sixties when I was a kid at a family picnic, heard my cousin use the "k" word and backhanded her upside the head with the reprimand, "They're God's Chosen People, so don't you ever say that again."
At any rate, consider re-posting. I think it's a conversation worth having provided it remains respectful.
Full disclosure: I am an Episcopalian, aka known as a liberal Christian, and a survivor of the attack on the World Trade Center on 9/11. My song and dance is to get people across the spiritual and cultural spectrum to focus on commonalities and understanding rather than divisions.
I am also a moderator on this forum, so it would be monitored to make sure any conversation does not go awry.
My biggest problem isn't overt anti Semitism, but the more subtle stuff. My biggest issue is xians who appropriate Jewish culture and belief, and then twist it to their purposes.
I went to a womans house not too long ago (part of my job) and she had Jewish items (mezuzah, Hebrew calendar, Shabbot candles, menorah, etc) mixed in with Xian bible verses and sayings. I asked her about it ("Interesting mix you have here!") and she stated she was "messianic", a "fully redeemed and completed jew" (lower case J intentional). I had no words, so I just left it be, and I was working.
I've noticed other of these types floating around; people who would be infuriated at the idea of appropriating African American or Hispanic culture, for example have no issue what-so-ever with appropriating Jewish culture. Jesus is the "Pasach lamb"? His shows up in matzah, because of holes and stripes?? SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?
THIS is the kind of anti Semitic crap I worry about, the kind that comes with a soft hand to blur the lines and destroy our people and our culture. At least the obvious types make themselves known and don't disguise themselves as "friends of the Jews".
It's funny, because all the "messianics" I've ever known are not converted Jews but rather goyim to begin with. I think they are taking on an identity not their own for some reason, much as some people like to attach themselves to Native/Aboriginal culture when it's not part of their heritage.
It's funny, because all the "messianics" I've ever known are not converted Jews but rather goyim to begin with. I think they are taking on an identity not their own for some reason, much as some people like to attach themselves to Native/Aboriginal culture when it's not part of their heritage.
To be a Jew, either your mother has to be Jewish or you have to be converted through proper and accepted channels. NO messie meets this criteria. And in the case of an ethnic Jew who converted to this mess, he is xian and not considered Jewish under halachic law. I understand they feel Yoshke (thanks Rachel!!) was Jewish so this how "entitles" them, but they are wrong.
The ironic part is that if Jesus were real, he would tell them the same thing.
I agree that you might want to consider re-posting this question in Christianity. I would ask if you wanted us to move it, but with the replies already in place, it might be best to re-post and, possibly, reword.
To answer the question, I think you need to take a step back and ask "HAS antisemitism persisted among Christians?" Yes, antisemitism persists, but the question is worded to sound as if it is the default among Christians to be antisemitic rather than the exception, and Christians who are not antisemitic might bristle at the implication and see an accusation.
You could also say that some Christians would not consider themselves antisemitic, but still, they likely have incorrect perceptions about Jews born of ignorance, not malice. There are others who would not see what they consider their duty to try to convert you as antisemitism, although personally, I think that falls under the category.
And then there are outright antisemitic people, individually or in groups, some of whom you noted above. I've been a mod here for less than a year, and trust me, they aren't far away.
Anecdotally, I think a lot of Christians are probably like my Aunt Ruth, who, back in the Sixties when I was a kid at a family picnic, heard my cousin use the "k" word and backhanded her upside the head with the reprimand, "They're God's Chosen People, so don't you ever say that again."
At any rate, consider re-posting. I think it's a conversation worth having provided it remains respectful.
Full disclosure: I am an Episcopalian, aka known as a liberal Christian, and a survivor of the attack on the World Trade Center on 9/11. My song and dance is to get people across the spiritual and cultural spectrum to focus on commonalities and understanding rather than divisions.
I am also a moderator on this forum, so it would be monitored to make sure any conversation does not go awry.
It's funny, because all the "messianics" I've ever known are not converted Jews but rather goyim to begin with. I think they are taking on an identity not their own for some reason, much as some people like to attach themselves to Native/Aboriginal culture when it's not part of their heritage.
To be a Jew, either your mother has to be Jewish or you have to be converted through proper and accepted channels. NO messie meets this criteria. And in the case of an ethnic Jew who converted to this mess, he is xian and not considered Jewish under halachic law. I understand they feel Yoshke (thanks Rachel!!) was Jewish so this how "entitles" them, but they are wrong.
The ironic part is that if Jesus were real, he would tell them the same thing.
Actually, as I’ve been told my a few Chassidics that an ethnic Jew will always be a Jew no matter what he converts to, but he will be held accountable to HaShem...
And the word Yoshke/Yushke is derogatory and if I remember correctly, a Jewish poster or two was reprimanded by another very well educated Jew that that term should not be used...
And the word Yoshke/Yushke is derogatory and if I remember correctly, a Jewish poster or two was reprimanded by another very well educated Jew that that term should not be used...
"Yoshke" is merely a Yiddish diminutive of the Hebrew name Yehoshua. It can be considered derogatory in the same way that some people view the word "goy/goyim" as being derogatory. But that doesn't necessarily make either "Yoshke" or "goy/goyim" derogatory words.
Our grandparents and generations before them would use the name Yoshke in order to avoid saying the name of Jesus. I believe it had to do with some prohibition against uttering the names of foreign deities. A lot of older Jews even today are uncomfortable using the word "Christmas" because of the word "Christ" in it, and instead will say "Xmas." That doesn't mean that the word "Xmas" is derogatory, either.
For the record, I don't have any problem saying the words "Jesus" or "Christmas" (although I will not call Jesus the "Christ" because I do not believe that he was the anointed Messiah).
P.S. If you still want to know what the "k" word is, Richard, send me a private message and I'll tell you. That word actually is derogatory (like the "n" word), and I will not post it here. Cheers to MQ's Aunt Ruth!
Last edited by Rachel NewYork; 05-15-2019 at 05:54 AM..
To be a Jew, either your mother has to be Jewish or you have to be converted through proper and accepted channels. NO messie meets this criteria. And in the case of an ethnic Jew who converted to this mess, he is xian and not considered Jewish under halachic law.
The criteria for being a Jew is pretty widely known, so I don't think they are actually declaring themselves Jews, but you'd probably have to ask someone in that type of church what they think. They are definitely Christians, though. There are one or two who pop into the Christian forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalhevet
I understand they feel Yoshke (thanks Rachel!!) was Jewish so this how "entitles" them, but they are wrong.
The ironic part is that if Jesus were real, he would tell them the same thing.
RachelNewYork's use of "Yushke" reminded me of one of the funniest sentences I ever read in this forum, the second one in this post.
LOL! The use of the word "Yid" in that statement is not derogatory, either.
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