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If our Tanakh is wrong, then what’s that make Christianity?...
If you learn what the errors are, you may well become a Jew...
You're not getting it.
I KNOW what the errors are. Maybe not all of them, but enough to know that the original Judaic scriptures were misrepresented, misinterpreted, or just plain changed as Christianity developed into a full-blown organized religion and became part of the historical power structure.
Richard1965, you've been hanging around the Christianity forum a long time. You've seriously NEVER seen me, and quite a few others like me, write about how we know this and how we do not hold the Bible to basis of our faith?
Christians outside of fundamentalism acknowledge the errors. It does not make a difference to the core belief of Christianity that this person was sent to teach us that the way to God--for non-Jews--is to strive to love God and one another. The very nature of Christianity, unlike Judaism, is that it is NOT based on a set of written laws.
Yes, we use scripture for learning and discussion, but we do not believe it is the utterance of God, but rather the writings and thoughts of men.
Learning how Christianity historically co-opted Jewish scripture did not make me become a Jew. I think someone is either a Jew--has a Jewish soul, as some put it--or they do not. I feel no call to Judaism.
What that learning does do is makes us understand our Jewish brothers and sisters a little better.
While this is a lovely thought, if I tell you where (in my humble belief) you are in error, then all of your religion falls apart.
There is no Jesus in the Tanakh, he isn't "hidden" in there anywhere. The nt is just as relevant to Jews as the book of Mormon ("another new testament") is to most mainstream Xians. The Messiah hasn't come yet.
If you accept these beliefs, even after we show you WHY these are considered to be accurate, there is no Xian religion. While that's perfectly fine with me, I imagine it would be very upsetting to a lot of believers.
**For the record, one of my favorite partners is Hindu. While I'm perfectly happy to explain what I believe and why, I don't spent any time telling her she is "wrong", unless she just flat out has bad information about Judaism. She does the same thing teaching me about Hinduism.
And this is why those of us who are non-fundamentalist Christians spend so much time arguing with the fundies over on the Christianity subforum, lol.
Because people like you only see them when they hear "Christianity". Understandable. They make a lot more noise than we do, and we have no interest in converting you; in fact, we think that would be wrong.
Of course I don't think that "blood libel" is something new. Ignorant, contemptible people have always been around. Is EVERYONE who isn't Jewish an ignorant, contemptible person? How one answers that says more about oneself than it does about others.
Ignorant? Either you're not old enough to have worked/traveled outside of NY, but claiming ignorance is a scapegoat. It's partly indoctrination plus a few other things depending on their demographics. I know people who are highly educated and live/work in the real world. The religion that does this the most is Christianity and where these live is mostly in Europe (and not as the MSM wants people to believe to be Islam and the Middle East).
Ignorant? Either you're not old enough to have worked/traveled outside of NY, but claiming ignorance is a scapegoat. It's partly indoctrination plus a few other things depending on their demographics. I know people who are highly educated and live/work in the real world. The religion that does this the most is Christianity and where these live is mostly in Europe (and not as the MSM wants people to believe to be Islam and the Middle East).
Okay, I'll be blunt: They are stupid, then. People can be "highly educated" and still behave stupidly. There are a lot of "highly educated" people in positions of power and privilege who behave stupidly. As for indoctrination – I'm not arguing there. Indoctrination, lack of critical thinking skills, xenophobia, bigotry, self-righteousness, pomposity, self-entitlement, greed, and irresponsibility contribute to the overall stupidity of too many otherwise "highly educated" people in this world.
As for Islam... I have no problem with Muslims either. As for your speculation about my age and whether I have traveled outside of NY, I don't owe you any personal information about myself, so you can just go on speculating.
I don't think it behooves us as Jews to generalize others in this way.
Additionally, Christianity is a false religion to those who are not Christian. It is a right religion for Christians.
(Regrettably posting on Shabbat, because some things cannot be left unsaid for too long.)
I must respectfully disagree. Christianity is not a right religion for anyone, any more than is any other false religion. I cannot think of a single religion that has done as much harm to humanity as Christianity. Today's Christians deserve to know the truth if and when they are ready for it.
I am curious why you say this. While I know some people involved in the Messy movement, I was Agnostic prior to my conversion, raised in a Methodist household.
Because the things you said at the beginning of your post, about the "old testament" being able to stand alone, but the "new testament" can't were the very things I said when I came out of the messianic church.
I think it's amazing that you were atheist and converted to Judaism. I'd love to know more about what attracted you to Judaism if you'd care to share. It sounds like you've had quite a journey!
I must respectfully disagree. Christianity is not a right religion for anyone, any more than is any other false religion. I cannot think of a single religion that has done as much harm to humanity as Christianity. Today's Christians deserve to know the truth if and when they are ready for it.
Funny, but there are atheists who say that about all religion.
Because the things you said at the beginning of your post, about the "old testament" being able to stand alone, but the "new testament" can't were the very things I said when I came out of the messianic church.
I think it's amazing that you were atheist and converted to Judaism. I'd love to know more about what attracted you to Judaism if you'd care to share. It sounds like you've had quite a journey!
I was born Baptist and my grandmother brought a black woman to church, the preacher protested and that was it for my mom and grandma. The only other church in town was an Assembly of God. I grew up with countless of people holding my head spinning prophesy about how I would be Moses and Elijah lol, even from the time I was 5. My mother had a dream of me when I was 5, and it has changed and formed the way she lives. When I got older, I was the great prophet spinning my prophesies that I really believed in. I spoke in tongues for almost 40 years and there were many times when I walked into a church and people became slain in the spirit from just seeing my mom or me, or my sister, completely drunk. Of course, we called it slain in the spirit and let there be no doubt, people literally become drunk and can't stand up on their own two feet, but this isn't a spirit of God making people drunk, it is their belief and knowing that makes them drunk. I ministered in almost every prison in Texas probably 3 times and each time I left people crying, and each time people prophesied over me saying the same things, that I was Moses and Elijah. My mother was always on TV and we became known in many churches everywhere, I was the up and coming great prophet lol.
Then on my birthday in 98, everything changed, I stopped being a Pentecostal, I stopped speaking tongues, and I stopped believing everything I had always been taught and I converted to Judaism, well, I know I may not be accepted by most people who practice Judaism, but that is the religion I now claim to be in.
This is the scripture that changed my life, I was at a time of feeling very down on myself if I would ever be a good father, I had children by two different mothers and I could never be good enough for their expectations. I had just been learning the difference between Israel and Judah, and I read how God sowed Israel into the nations to one day gather a harvest from the nations to whom they were sent.
I was depressed thinking that my children would never be proud of me, and then I read that scripture about the children of Joseph and it gave me hope.
Judah and Israel will Be Restored Zechariah 10
1 Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field.
2 For the idols have spoken vanity, and the diviners have seen a lie, and have told false dreams; they comfort in vain: therefore they went their way as a flock, they were troubled, because*there was*no shepherd.
3 Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the LORD of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle.
4 Out of him came forth the corner, out of him the nail, out of him the battle bow, out of him every oppressor together.
5 And they shall be as mighty men, which tread down their enemies in the mire of the streets in the battle: and they shall fight, because the LORD is with them, and the riders on horses shall be confounded.
6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them.
7 And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see*it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD.
8 I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased.
9 And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again.
10 I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and place*shall not be found for them.
11And he shall pass through the sea with affliction, and shall smite the waves in the sea, and all the deeps of the river shall dry up: and the pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the sceptre of Egypt shall depart away.
12And I will strengthen them in the LORD; and they shall walk up and down in his name, saith the LORD.
Thank you for sharing all of that. I grew up in a charismatic, non-denominational church. It was what I'd call borderline pentecostal. Speaking in tonges, dancing in the aisles, but not as much as some. So, I get where you're coming from.
I think your children are very blessed to have a father who cares so much.
You can be Jew-ish without being a Jew. I believe conversion takes place in the heart. The mikvah is just the finalizing of what's already taken place. I am converting (reform of all things! I wanted an orthodox conversion but my family flat out refused. This is the only way I can keep us all on the same path together, and I'll convert orthodox down the line), and while I wouldn't call you a Jew, I would call you a Jewish person if that makes sense. And there's nothing wrong with being a rightous gentile or a noahide either.
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