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A while ago I read People Love Dead Jews: Reports from a Haunted Present by Dara Horn. The book's premise is that dead Jews, i.e. Holocaust victims (Anne Frank in particular) and other similar people are a lot more popular than actual, identifiable living Jews. The author writes a lengthy chapter on a righteous Gentile, Darian Fry, The gist of that appears to be that Darian Fry was not well liked as an actual person and got little glory. What the author did tell us about him was that aside from his year engaging in rescue he was extremely unhappy and not easy to get along with.
I paraphrase the title of People Love Dead Jews to People Love Helpless Jews. During the 1950's and the first half of the 1960's Israel and the Jews were media and liberal political darlings. Jewish songs used for hora dancing were popularized by popular singers such as Arlo Guthrie.
That changed rather suddenly after the 1967 War. Israel, blockaded by Egypt at the key port of Eilat, struck preemptively. The U.S., torn apart by Vietnam, was no help. Britain and France, their 1956 allies, had switched sides. Fast forward to today, where Jews are basically unwelcome on college campuses. People loved us when we were down and almost out. They wept copious tears for the Holocaust. However, in another context, as the companion song to We Are the World says, Tears Are Not Enough, by Northern Light.
A while ago I read People Love Dead Jews: Reports from a Haunted Present by Dara Horn. The book's premise is that dead Jews, i.e. Holocaust victims (Anne Frank in particular) and other similar people are a lot more popular than actual, identifiable living Jews. The author writes a lengthy chapter on a righteous Gentile, Darian Fry, The gist of that appears to be that Darian Fry was not well liked as an actual person and got little glory. What the author did tell us about him was that aside from his year engaging in rescue he was extremely unhappy and not easy to get along with.
I paraphrase the title of People Love Dead Jews to People Love Helpless Jews. During the 1950's and the first half of the 1960's Israel and the Jews were media and liberal political darlings. Jewish songs used for hora dancing were popularized by popular singers such as Arlo Guthrie.
That changed rather suddenly after the 1967 War. Israel, blockaded by Egypt at the key port of Eilat, struck preemptively. The U.S., torn apart by Vietnam, was no help. Britain and France, their 1956 allies, had switched sides. Fast forward to today, where Jews are basically unwelcome on college campuses. People loved us when we were down and almost out. They wept copious tears for the Holocaust. However, in another context, as the companion song to We Are the World says, Tears Are Not Enough, by Northern Light.
How about Books? isn’t there a forum for book discussion? if not there should be one.
I posted a review of all the books, as I read them. The "Books" forum is not the place for discussion of the book topics. In this case, the thread topic is the propensity to romanticize or faun over dead or helpless Jews but not like to side with them in the endless efforts to eliminate them.
yes, the topic of this thread is not to discuss a book.
what comes to mind for me is damned if you do, damned if you don't.
in discussions of the Holocaust there are two questions that are often raised and repeated and discussed. I remember hearing them in high school, and university, and in the decades since. Much of my mother's side of the family was slaughtered in the Holocaust. There are no Holocaust survivors in my family. My family who stayed in Germany were all slaughtered. The ones who managed to escape went to USA and South America.
So in the decades since, we have all heard these common-sense questions asked and still being discussed by Jews and non-Jews alike:
1. "why didn't someone just go in an assassinate Hitler and the leaders of the Third Reich" "That would have prevented a whole lot of additional bloodshed and kept it from spreading across so much of the world and involving so many other countries."
and
2. "why didn't the Jews fight back, that's what they should have done"
fast forward to today. groups on the world stage are again calling for "death to the Jews" and attacking. The difference is today there are Jews now saying "Never again is now" and yes fighting back. "Never again" is associated with the lessons of the Holocaust. and in current times it includes taking steps to assassinate the leaders of those who are seeking to carry out "death to the Jews."
On the world stage there are those who support "never again" and there are those who support "death to the Jews." i don't think it's so much that people love dead jews or love helpless jews. my own view is that people love to blame jews and love to hate jews. no matter if it is upset over "jews fighting back" or it is upset over Jews NOT fighting back. Yeah, people don't like it when Jews are massacred, but yeah they don't like it when Jews fight back either.
it is like a feral animal, there is no rationale to it, just like there is no rationale to a rabid animal. just blind hate.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-05-2024 at 03:24 PM..
A while ago I read People Love Dead Jews: Reports from a Haunted Present by Dara Horn. The book's premise is that dead Jews, i.e. Holocaust victims (Anne Frank in particular) and other similar people are a lot more popular than actual, identifiable living Jews. The author writes a lengthy chapter on a righteous Gentile, Darian Fry, The gist of that appears to be that Darian Fry was not well liked as an actual person and got little glory. What the author did tell us about him was that aside from his year engaging in rescue he was extremely unhappy and not easy to get along with.
I paraphrase the title of People Love Dead Jews to People Love Helpless Jews. During the 1950's and the first half of the 1960's Israel and the Jews were media and liberal political darlings. Jewish songs used for hora dancing were popularized by popular singers such as Arlo Guthrie.
That changed rather suddenly after the 1967 War. Israel, blockaded by Egypt at the key port of Eilat, struck preemptively. The U.S., torn apart by Vietnam, was no help. Britain and France, their 1956 allies, had switched sides. Fast forward to today, where Jews are basically unwelcome on college campuses. People loved us when we were down and almost out. They wept copious tears for the Holocaust. However, in another context, as the companion song to We Are the World says, Tears Are Not Enough, by Northern Light.
This theme is also well in The Arc of a Covenant: The United States, Israel and the Fate of the Jewish People by Walter Russell Mead[/url].
NOTE: I had trouble placing this thread. I don't feel it belongs in either POC or Judaism so here it is.
I think the OP raises questions that for me would be interesting to see discussed in the Judaism forum, if it was allowed to stay there.
mostly in my family nobody liked to talk about the Holocaust and nobody liked to hear questions about it. It was too close to home and it hurt too much. I did get one answer, one time, to the question, when i posed the question "Why didn't the rest of the family leave." The answer i got was, nobody really took it seriously. they just thought Hitler was some nut spouting off and ignored him. My grandfather, who was an attorney, he took it seriously and understood the gravity of what was going on, and got out those who would leave with him.
my observation is seeing the same thing going on now. people are not taking it seriously.
A while ago I read People Love Dead Jews: Reports from a Haunted Present by Dara Horn. The book's premise is that dead Jews, i.e. Holocaust victims (Anne Frank in particular) and other similar people are a lot more popular than actual, identifiable living Jews. The author writes a lengthy chapter on a righteous Gentile, Darian Fry, The gist of that appears to be that Darian Fry was not well liked as an actual person and got little glory. What the author did tell us about him was that aside from his year engaging in rescue he was extremely unhappy and not easy to get along with.
I paraphrase the title of People Love Dead Jews to People Love Helpless Jews. During the 1950's and the first half of the 1960's Israel and the Jews were media and liberal political darlings. Jewish songs used for hora dancing were popularized by popular singers such as Arlo Guthrie.
That changed rather suddenly after the 1967 War. Israel, blockaded by Egypt at the key port of Eilat, struck preemptively. The U.S., torn apart by Vietnam, was no help. Britain and France, their 1956 allies, had switched sides. Fast forward to today, where Jews are basically unwelcome on college campuses. People loved us when we were down and almost out. They wept copious tears for the Holocaust. However, in another context, as the companion song to We Are the World says, Tears Are Not Enough, by Northern Light.
This theme is also well in The Arc of a Covenant: The United States, Israel and the Fate of the Jewish People by Walter Russell Mead[/url].
NOTE: I had trouble placing this thread. I don't feel it belongs in either POC or Judaism so here it is.
I think the OP raises questions that for me would be interesting to see discussed in the Judaism forum, if it was allowed to stay there.
mostly in my family nobody liked to talk about the Holocaust and nobody liked to hear questions about it. It was too close to home and it hurt too much. I did get one answer, one time, to the question, when i posed the question "Why didn't the rest of the family leave." The answer i got was, nobody really took it seriously. they just thought Hitler was some nut spouting off in local politics and nobody would take him seriously, and they just ignored him. My grandfather, who was an attorney, he took it seriously and understood the gravity of what was going on, and got out those who would leave with him.
my observation is seeing the same thing going on now. people are not taking it seriously.
and yeah people don't like it when Jews are massacred, but yeah they don't like it when Jews fight back either.
from a philosophy standpoint (this thread) it seems to me about drilling down further and identifying what the complaints really stem from. Because clearly it is not logical to state "fight back, and don't fight back." To say "assassinate the leaders, and don't assassinate the leaders." There is something else going on back of that, which is driving the bus.
yes, the topic of this thread is not to discuss a book.
what comes to mind for me is damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Perfect description of the dilemma. If you don't fight back it's your fault that you are killed. If you do fight back your fight is “disproportionate." My own choice is a vicious fight to a beautiful funeral.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
1. "why didn't someone just go in an assassinate Hitler and the leaders of the Third Reich" "That would have prevented a whole lot of additional bloodshed and kept it from spreading across so much of the world and involving so many other countries."
The book Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer treated the unsuccessful attempt in some detail. The assassination attempt was apparently done not because of Hitler's total lack of morality, but because the further conduct of the war was objectively futile. There were no good people involved here. There was an assassination Attempt. That attempt was by insiders, as it always had to be, rather than by Jews. The Jews would have gotten nowhere close to Hitler in order to be able to carry out such an attempt. As it was, the attempt did not work.
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
2. "why didn't the Jews fight back, that's what they should have done"
The Warsaw Ghetto was one big exception to the general passivity of the Jewish people. However, the Jewish people come event as now are a bookish, generally passive group of people. It took the horror of a Holocaust and then the success of the Zionist movement to turn them into fighters. Obviously, people do not like that result. See below for more of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
fast forward to today. groups on the world stage are again calling for "death to the Jews" and attacking. The difference is today there are Jews now saying "Never again is now" and yes fighting back. "Never again" is associated with the lessons of the Holocaust. and in current times it includes taking steps to assassinate the leaders of those who are seeking to carry out "death to the Jews."
On the world stage there are those who support "never again" and there are those who support "death to the Jews." i don't think it's so much that people love dead jews or love helpless jews. my own view is that people love to blame jews and love to hate jews. no matter if it is upset over "jews fighting back" or it is upset over Jews NOT fighting back. Yeah, people don't like it when Jews are massacred, but yeah they don't like it when Jews fight back either.
it is like a feral animal, there is no rationale to it, just like there is no rationale to a rabid animal. just blind hate.
As I tried to state in the OP, people do not like Jews as fighters. They see the Jews as killing helpless people. Hamas deliberately places helpless people in the path of harm in order to gain media sympathy. The Jews are now doing what they should be doing which is fighting vigorously. The world, and to some extent the diaspora Jews, do not understand or support this. They see the attack on the "Palestinians" as being “genocide." This is fighting back and not genocide. The Palestinians are themselves a creation of the other Arab countries.
One thing is for sure come however, if the Palestinian entity had to be self supported, there would be no Palestinian movement. The Palestinian movement, and most post World War two independence movements are fought in expectation of widespread subsidies, which the leaders will then proceed to steal. All one has to do is look at the amount of aid that has gone into countries such as Pakistan and Burundi to see that very little of it has gone to the intended recipients and most of it has gone to the kleptocratic leaders.
They wept copious tears for the Holocaust. However, in another context, as the companion song to We Are the World says, Tears Are Not Enough, by Northern Light.
y
2. "why didn't the Jews fight back, that's what they should have done"
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa
The Warsaw Ghetto was one big exception to the general passivity of the Jewish people. However, the Jewish people come event as now are a bookish, generally passive group of people. It took the horror of a Holocaust and then the success of the Zionist movement to turn them into fighters. Obviously, people do not like that result. See below for more of that.
The way I understand it, the Jews sent emissaries from the ghetto to the Polish Underground (Communists) to ask for weapons, and the request was denied. Without weapons, how could they fight back? (I'm not necessarily blaming the Polish Underground -- how would they replace weapons given to the Jews?)
Quote:
As I tried to state in the OP, people do not like Jews as fighters. They see the Jews as killing helpless people. Hamas deliberately places helpless people in the path of harm in order to gain media sympathy. The Jews are now doing what they should be doing which is fighting vigorously. The world, and to some extent the diaspora Jews, do not understand or support this. They see the attack on the "Palestinians" as being “genocide." This is fighting back and not genocide. The Palestinians are themselves a creation of the other Arab countries.
People are trained from an early age to root for the underdog. They root for the mouse against the cat, the cat against the dog, and the dog against the dog catcher. In simplistic terms, the high-tech industrial state of Israel is the cat where the rag-tag Palestinians are the mouse. The pro-Israel side is up against today's short attention spans being inundated by 10-second Tik Tok videos of children sitting in rubble, crying. None of those videos asks why Hamas refuses to release the remaining 132 hostages (or send the bodies back to their families), and if Hamas destroys their own hospital with a misfired rocket -- oops -- it's quickly forgotten.
Israel just has to keep on doing the right thing.
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