The Legends/Village West and what COULD have been.... (California: hotels, house)

[MOKAN]

I can only think of 1 restaurant that closed in KCK after Village West came along. Cracker Barrel. To be honest, there wasn't anything there to be affected by Village West to close. KCK certainly needed the local-oriented retail and restaurants that are provided by Village West, and trust me, the place serves all of KCK, although with KCK's poor demographic, it's helpful that the local-oriented offerings are subsidized by the demographic draw of the area overall being a destination-type development. I've said it before and I will again, KCK operates and is very much like its own small city removed from the KC metro, much like St. Joseph or Topeka. St. Joseph's lifestyle/big-box center is on the far northeast edge of the city, away from the majority of the population. Topeka's similar area, the mall and chain restaurants are on Wanamaker Rd, on the northwest edge of town, away from the majoity of the population. Point is, being physically on the far west edge of developed KCK does not stop Village West from being KCK's centerpoint and serving all residents. And KCK can certainly support Walmart, Target, Kohls, a handful of clothing stores and restaurants, and a movie theater. As for the destination-specific attractions, they will draw on themselves. I mean, the Truman Sports Complex hasn't become "unsustainable" despite its location.

I am not here to predict the future or use my bias and favor of urban development to spell doom for Village West. I just can see in my own mind how much better all of the energy the place has created could have benefitted existing infrastructure and neighborhoods and put energy back into older parts of town.

To be honest, Village West is NOT your typical suburban development. There's nothing that compares to it in Kansas City. The only thing I know of that it compares to is Mall of America. You think Village West is doomed to fail in 15-20 years? How many decades has the Mall of America been successful? Besides, there is plenty of time for the area to gain housing construction and population. It surely could and will, but with the economy, it hasn't had the chance to take off.

Anyway, I really wish what I outlined in my initial post had been the outcome, it could have instantly transformed Kansas City as a whole. And to some extent, Village West has done that in regard to providing a family-oriented, Mall of America type development. But it would have been SO much more than that had it all played out like what I envision in my original post. Luckily, I still have hope for downtown KCMO and even downtown KCK. It's just annoying that what could have transformed the center of town is 15 miles away.

~MoKan

[Blue Earth]

My complaint with the way that STAR bonds are talked about here with Village West is that it is talked about like it is a development that is funded directly by the state of Kansas, as if Kansas is taking taxpayer money directly from Kansas residents and just funneling it into Village West to subsidize Village West and give it an unfair advantage. This is commonly how both kcmo and GraniteStater talk about STAR bonds as it relates to developments on the Kansas side.

As it pertains to Village West, that is not how STAR bonds work and that is not how the Village West development operates or has operated. The state doesn't subsidize it. Collecting sales taxes is not subsidizing. The state created the legislation to authorize Wyandotte County to issue the STAR bonds. The STAR bond money comes from private developers. The only taxpayer money being used is sales tax money collected from people who voluntarily make purchases at Village West businesses. Many, if not most, of those people are not even city or state residents.

If someone is living in Topeka, or Wichita, or Johnson County, and doesn't shop at Village West, they aren't being taxed anything to pay for Village West. The state does not subsidize Village West. Subsidizing would be taking income tax proceeds from taxpayers in Wichita and giving them as hand-outs to lure retailers to Village West. That is not even remotely what is happening, but it is precisely the image that you are trying to conjure with your language about state subsidies.

As far as the idea of some "missed opportunity" to put Village West in downtown KCK or KC, this just doesn't make sense. A missed opportunity would be something like KC failing to land the Seattle SuperSonics, watching OKC get your team. That was a missed opportunity, in the sense that it was something that actually had a realistic chance of happening, but for whatever reason, the important people were not able to make it happen. Village West was not intended to be an urban development. The Speedway was the first thing to be built as part of the project. The Speedway had to be built in an open, rural area. Nothing that came after would have been built without the Speedway next to it, so the point is moot.

I can imagine Wyandotte County getting the Speedway, then selling $300 million in STAR bonds to buy abandoned buildings downtown to "capitalize" on the growth from the Speedway that is 10 miles west. They then could go bankrupt when they couldn't pay their bondholders because no one wanted to build in downtown KCK. Everyone would say how incompetent they were, and ask why didn't they just build it all near the Speedway. And we would all sit and reminisce about what could have been...

[MOKAN]

Originally Posted by Blue Earth

My complaint with the way that STAR bonds....

I agree with you regarding the STAR bonds. Wyandotte County/KCK needed something to happen and what has been amazing for that community very well may not have happened had STAR bonds not been an available resource. KCK is better for it, no matter if it's far-flung suburban development. Typical KCK residents are just happy to have something of their own, despite the shortcomings I see.

I don't agree with you in regard to suggesting enthriving the urban core rather than a bunch of far-flung, rural land is not a missed opportunity. You either lack vision or you don't understand or just don't care about urban development. What I envisioned in my intial post COULD have happened. It's happened in many other cities. There's a lack of ambition in KC and a lack of education/experience of what COULD be and I think it resonates throughout the community from our leadership to your average joe. Even I begin to get drawn into this, only to be jolted back in to the reality of potential by seeing what other cities have and are doing.

And being that I'm not a sports fan, I would definitely trade off a sports team for what I envisioned in my original post. I'd rather live in a city with a truly thriving urban core than one with X number of sports teams.

[aragx6]

I think it's insane and downright lying to say that STAR bonds and TIFs are not using taxpayer dollars. Whether it's unfair or fair or good or bad is really neither here nor there to this argument. STAR bonds offer incentive to build by giving money that would otherwise go to infrastructure, schools, police and fireman and gives it to developers instead. Period. That's what the program is.

[aragx6]

Originally Posted by MOKAN

To be honest, Village West is NOT your typical suburban development. There's nothing that compares to it in Kansas City. The only thing I know of that it compares to is Mall of America.

How is VW like Mall of America?

[thriftylefty]

I did get a chance to visit the area about a month ago. It was a week day around ten ,but even so I was impressed at the potential of the place. four years ago I was at Victoria Gardens in Rancho Cucamonga and I can see what KCK was going for. If I remember correctly Victoria Gardens had a Public Library or a public civic center tied into it. This is what I think would be a good addition to the Village. The communities out that way also do not want any apartment housing development. I think that is a good ideal but it limits population near by. IMO Western Wyco is a diamond in the rough with its access to the Casino , airport, Johnson county, and the plaza,(via ,632,435,I-70) with out it being too urban. I think urbanization is over. Even in small towns the down towns have given way to shopping on the out skirts of town.

[RjRobb2]

Originally Posted by PVPete

Exactly right. Wonder why SKC didn't want to build a stadium out there instead? Seems like there is more money in the northland. I guess they didn't want to be so far from JoCo?

You think that SKC just picked up a map of SKC, pointed and said, "We want to build out stadium there!". It doesnt work that way. Getting a stadium built is probably the most difficult thing to get done as far as commercial construction goes in the entire country. You have to build where you can get the deal done. Honestly, I think where it was built was the best place for it.

The Unified Government, WyCo, and Village West came to the SKC ownership group about the stadium a long time ago and after the Three Trails project was falling apart, they took them up on the offer.

[RjRobb2]

Originally Posted by kcmo

Because KCMO wasn't going to super tiff all the retail at I-29 and Barry road to pay for a soccer stadium. Smart move. None of that up there is even a tif, let alone a supertiff/star bond (which is city and state taxes). So all that sales tax that goes to kcmo city hall (and jeff city) would have gone to build a soccer stadium for the next 10-20 years.

Actually, KCMO approved the deal to build the stadium at Bannister. It was the inability of the state to sell the bonds that killed it. It wasnt killed by anyone other than the economic conditions of the time. Had we not been in a recession, that stadium would be sitting at Bannister Mall right now.

[RjRobb2]

Originally Posted by PVPete

What galls me isn't so much that (although that bothers me too), its that everything at the location is soooo spread out. I want to like the place, believe me, as a native Kansan and a supporter of WyCo. But its ridiculous that if you want to make a day of it out there, you have to park your car in one place, and unless you're willing to hike across lagoons of parking, you have to get back in your car and drive to another place. I don't understand why they made all the restaurant stand alone places when they could have integrated them better into the shopping area. They could have made a really neat New Urbanist "lifestyle center" or something like that, but instead they followed the same model as old school 80s retail centers which is why the place will eventually fail because 75% of the stuff there is stuff you can find down the street in any KC area suburb, so why go all the way out there and have to drag your car around?

Are you talking about Legends? You think it is spread out? You have a race track, casino, soccer stadium, baseball stadium, a dozen or more restaurants, NFM, Cabela's and tons of stores all compacted in a stretch that is like two miles wide. How could you possibly call that spread out. Why would you have to get back in your car? Once you park you are free to walk wherever you need too.

[GraniteStater]

Originally Posted by thriftylefty

I did get a chance to visit the area about a month ago. It was a week day around ten ,but even so I was impressed at the potential of the place. four years ago I was at Victoria Gardens in Rancho Cucamonga and I can see what KCK was going for. If I remember correctly Victoria Gardens had a Public Library or a public civic center tied into it. This is what I think would be a good addition to the Village. The communities out that way also do not want any apartment housing development. I think that is a good ideal but it limits population near by. IMO Western Wyco is a diamond in the rough with its access to the Casino , airport, Johnson county, and the plaza,(via ,632,435,I-70) with out it being too urban. I think urbanization is over. Even in small towns the down towns have given way to shopping on the out skirts of town.

Why are all these newer developments seemingly trying to emulate those from cities in the West? I really don't get it. Kansas sure isn't California and should never try to be.