The mobs of kids on the Plaza (Overland, Houston: houses, elementary schools)

[TabulaRasa]

Originally Posted by luzianne

A 14 year old shooting his 6 year old cousin in an office building is not the same as 125 teens on the Plaza, one who was arrested for having a gun. It's not because one is Kansas and one Missouri or one on Shawnee Mission Parkway and one the Plaza and you know it. It's a totally different situation.

Obviously. In either case, though, it's a 14 year old with a gun, and horrifying in either context. Probably moreso in the Mission case, given that a child was shot. In either case, there's a real question about parental oversight, which is the ultimately the social issue at the root of anything involving unsupervised youth spending their time in disruptive and even dangerous pursuits. Different situation, same social problem...poor parenting.

The teens on the Plaza are there to cause trouble. They bump into people purposely. They interfere with traffic. They get into fights. What do you think a 14 year old was on the Plaza with a gun for? To rob someone? To shoot another kid his age?

As I said, I just heard a Plaza restaurant owner say on the radio that they are paying a lot of money to get out of their lease on the Plaza and move their restaurant to Zona Rosa because their business is down 20% on weekends because of the crowds of kids.

I think it's ridiculous how everyone downplays it. I'm sure potential visitors to Kansas City DO think it is a big deal.

And, as the OP questioned, what are some suggestions to improve the situation? There are options, some of them good, some bad, some with a track record of effectiveness, some that don't have that. Every metro in the world has poverty, every metro in the world has youth who run the streets, and every city in the world has gun violence. The question is, do you address it, or do you say, "Well, we might as well just build some malls too far out for thug youth to get to," and then when the thug youth get there, close them down and abandon them and build further out?

[luzianne]

Originally Posted by TabulaRasa

Obviously. In either case, though, it's a 14 year old with a gun, and horrifying in either context. Probably moreso in the Mission case, given that a child was shot. In either case, there's a real question about parental oversight, which is the ultimately the social issue at the root of anything involving unsupervised youth spending their time in disruptive and even dangerous pursuits. Different situation, same social problem...poor parenting.



And, as the OP questioned, what are some suggestions to improve the situation? There are options, some of them good, some bad, some with a track record of effectiveness, some that don't have that. Every metro in the world has poverty, every metro in the world has youth who run the streets, and every city in the world has gun violence. The question is, do you address it, or do you say, "Well, we might as well just build some malls too far out for thug youth to get to," and then when the thug youth get there, close them down and abandon them and build further out?

So you think the problem is that there are malls in the suburbs?! And the inner city youth can't get to the malls in the suburbs so they naturally are going to congregate on the Plaza? Are you even listening to yourself? That makes absolutely no sense. As far as I knew, malls were for shopping, not for kids to hang out. Your solution is to build the malls closer in so the inner city kids can get to them, and then they won't be forced to cause trouble on the Plaza?

A 14 year old kid should be at home at 10:30 pm. I think we need to start fining the parents. They are responsible for their children; they shouldn't be running around the Plaza or anywhere else. There also should be no kids allowed on the Plaza without an adult after a certain time. If they are found on the Plaza, arrest them and make their parents come and get them.

[TabulaRasa]

Originally Posted by luzianne

So you think the problem is that there are malls in the suburbs?! And the inner city youth can't get to the malls in the suburbs so they naturally are going to congregate on the Plaza? Are you even listening to yourself? That makes absolutely no sense. As far as I knew, malls were for shopping, not for kids to hang out.

A 14 year old kid should be at home at 10:30 pm. I think we need to start fining the parents. They are responsible for their children; they shouldn't be running around the Plaza or anywhere else. There also should be no kids allowed on the Plaza without an adult after a certain time. If they are found on the Plaza, arrest them and make their parents come and get them.

Yes, that was absolutely what I was saying. Malls in the suburbs cause urban youth loitering and violence. Clearly.

I certainly didn't state that high poverty and poor parenting are the issues at hand, no, not at all.

[luzianne]

Originally Posted by TabulaRasa

Yes, that was absolutely what I was saying. Malls in the suburbs cause urban youth loitering and violence. Clearly.

I certainly didn't state that high poverty and poor parenting are the issues at hand, no, not at all.

Then why did you mention moving malls further and further away where urban youth can't get to them? You said it, I didn't.

[TabulaRasa]

I was asking if anybody had any ideas for solutions other than, "Abandon the Plaza, because it's dangerous and sucky. Go to Zona Rosa instead, just like [fill in the blank alleged Plaza restauranteur] is gonna do."

And also noting that if the entire metro WERE to abandon the Plaza in favor of, say, Zona Rosa, how long would it be before some unsavory element followed? It certainly wouldn't be the first time inner city problems made their way to a retail outpost far flung from the city center.

[luzianne]

Originally Posted by TabulaRasa

I was asking if anybody had any ideas for solutions other than, "Abandon the Plaza, because it's dangerous and sucky. Go to Zona Rosa instead, just like [fill in the blank alleged Plaza restauranteur] is gonna do."

And also noting that if the entire metro WERE to abandon the Plaza in favor of, say, Zona Rosa, how long would it be before some unsavory element followed? It certainly wouldn't be the first time inner city problems made their way to a retail outpost far flung from the city center.

No one said abandon the Plaza. I said one person on the radio said that THEY are moving their restaurant from the Plaza to Zona Rosa because the kids on the Plaza on the weekends have caused a 20% loss of business and apparently to them it is enough of a problem that it is worth it to pay a fine to get out of their lease and relocate. That tells you IT'S A PROBLEM.

I just heard on the radio (you can find out a lot on talk radio - KMBZ if anyone wants to listen) that the 14 year old was carrying a Glock, and that he was inside PF Chang's with it on Saturday night, that the teens were bumping into people on sidewalks purposely, and that they were darting in and out of traffic and thumbing their noses at the police. This was all on Saturday night. IT'S A PROBLEM. Something has to be done. Sly James put a curfew in effect and apparently that's not being enforced. Why not? Are we going to allow the Plaza to be taken over by thugs so no one wants to go there, no one who lives in Kansas City and no one visiting Kansas City, either? Why are they allowing this kind of thing to continue?

[TabulaRasa]

Is anybody saying it's NOT a problem? I haven't seen that.

[luzianne]

Originally Posted by TabulaRasa

Is anybody saying it's NOT a problem? I haven't seen that.

Well yes, when you say "I'm sure there were just as many kids who were NOT causing problems," you are basically saying it's no big deal. If you read through the thread, it is abundantly clear that people are downplaying it, or insinuating that some people are making too big a deal out of it.

And the restaurant owner has every right to move their restaurant if they feel like mobs of kids on the Plaza are causing customers to avoid their restaurant. That is perfectly reasonable. The doesn't mean every business will move, but if this continues I guarantee there will be more. I've only been to Zona Rosa once and don't know much about it, but apparently there aren't mobs of kids running wild there.

[TabulaRasa]

Originally Posted by luzianne

Well yes, when you say "I'm sure there were just as many kids who were NOT causing problems," you are basically saying it's no big deal. If you read through the thread, it is abundantly clear that people are downplaying it, or insinuating that some people are making too big a deal out of it.

I'm sure there WERE many kids who were not causing problems. Any many patrons of a variety of ages not causing problems. I'm sure the vast majority of Kansas City exists on a day-to-day basis without engaging in dangerous or threatening pursuits. And then there is a minority who do. I'm sure everyone would rather that criminal elements avoid their part of town, but if they don't, that's why there is law enforcement.

Look, kids with guns is obvious a big deal. But wringing hands and saying, "Nobody's going to want to go to the Plaza" doesn't really help. Because, obviously, people DO want to go to the Plaza.

You asked, "Why are they allowing this kind of thing to continue?"

Probably because there are legitimate constraints to how municipalities address loitering youth, particularly when 9/10 of the loitering youth are not necessarily breaking a single law, and are mostly guilty of being highly annoying and not guilty of any crimes.

You can put in a curfew, which apparently has been attempted. Why is it not working? I don't know, but if I had to guess, I would say mostly likely, negligible enforcement, and insufficient consequences. So if that's the case, what do you do about THAT? I would not be surprised if it comes down to priorities and manpower.

I have been gone from KC as a resident for about six months now, but most of the years I did live in KC, I lived on the Plaza. I ran every day in Mill Creek Park, from the Nichols Fountain to the Vietnam Memorial, sometimes evening, sometimes in the predawn hours of the morning. I spent a lot of time utilizing the more loitering-heavy spots of the Plaza as a resident. I attended every variety of street fair and event held there, for many years. I NEVER saw a significant police presence anywhere on the Plaza in my time as a resident. On the retail portions of the Plaza, I obviously saw Highwoods Security, but I'm unclear as to how intimidating mall cops come off to would-be criminal elements. It's not surprising that kids looking to be out without supervision will congregate at a location that is fairly unsupervised.

So why would the city not have a greater presence of "supervision," if they are concerned about safety and decorum at one of the city's major tourism areas? Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe there's a much greater beat cop presence on the plaza in the six months I've been gone. But if not...why not? My in-laws include among their ranks retired KCPD. If I wanted to have a really lively conversation with them, I could ask them about loitering ordinances on the Plaza, and why they are enforced in the way that they are. But I simply don't know, for a fact, although I have some ideas.

[luzianne]

It's irrelevant if there were kids not causing problems. The ones who do cause problems spoil it for everyone.

It sounds to me like there is indeed a heavy police presence on the Plaza. It's not MY job to figure out how to solve the problem. And the mayor isn't doing anything about it. If it continues, people will stop going to the Plaza - so they'd better figure it out fast.