Is Kansas City a Western city? (St. Louis, Ferguson: store, train, ordinance)

[TabulaRasa]

I know very few people from Seattle who would even have anything resembling a semblance of an informed opinion on Kansas City (or anywhere in the middle of the country, for that matter).

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by TabulaRasa

I know very few people from Seattle who would even have anything resembling a semblance of an informed opinion on Kansas City (or anywhere in the middle of the country, for that matter).

My brother was one when he lived in Woodinville.

Seattle is just about the only city in the country that I would say is greener than Kansas City. (By "greener" I'm referring to tree cover, grass and other such greenery, not eco-consciousness. I think all that rain makes Seattle particularly lush in that department.)

[MOforthewin]

Originally Posted by elkotronics

One of Missouri's gems are the Ozarks. I went to college in Rolla, MO, and, you know, that place has a southern influence to it. Very mellow little town. I was born in Seattle but I'm happy ta be in Missouri. Kansas City has been a nice discovery.

I know many snobs from the Seattle area who would put KC down. They're missing out. I'm thinking of retiring here in Kansas City.

Yep. No one on here will argue Rolla has a number of southern influences. It is on the southern end of that transition zone that is a mix of Midwest and south influence like southern IN and southern IL are. The area certainly leans southern, but it isn't quite fully southern. At one time it was much more southern. Just south of town it gets fully southern but Rolla is still within that transition zone that has elements of the Midwest and south mixed into it. Southern influences, yes but not fully southern like Branson or West Plains are for example.

[EddieOlSkool]

Originally Posted by MOforthewin

Yep. No one on here will argue Rolla has a number of southern influences. It is on the southern end of that transition zone that is a mix of Midwest and south influence like southern IN and southern IL are. The area certainly leans southern, but it isn't quite fully southern. At one time it was much more southern. Just south of town it gets fully southern but Rolla is still within that transition zone that has elements of the Midwest and south mixed into it. Southern influences, yes but not fully southern like Branson or West Plains are for example.

And the Ozark Southern is more of an Upper South type of Southern which is very different from say a New Madrid Southern which could be called a very far North extension of a Memphis type of Southern which has more of a Deep South feel (could fit into the "Black Belt" of the US). Think Country vs. Blues/Jazz or something like that.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool

And the Ozark Southern is more of an Upper South type of Southern which is very different from say a New Madrid Southern which could be called a very far North extension of a Memphis type of Southern which has more of a Deep South feel (could fit into the "Black Belt" of the US). Think Country vs. Blues/Jazz or something like that.

That "11 Nations" book calls the one "Greater Appalachia" and the other "Deep South".

Geographically speaking, according to its county-based map, none of Missouri lies in the latter; all of its "Southern" counties are in "Greater Appalachia."

As this territory includes all or most of the states identified commonly as "Mid-South" or "Upper South" (Arkansas, Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina) as well as West Virginia and parts of Virginia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois and Indiana, I'm willing to accept this distinction.

[MOforthewin]

Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool

And the Ozark Southern is more of an Upper South type of Southern which is very different from say a New Madrid Southern which could be called a very far North extension of a Memphis type of Southern which has more of a Deep South feel (could fit into the "Black Belt" of the US). Think Country vs. Blues/Jazz or something like that.

The Ozarks in general fit in more with the upper south. Notice there are a lot of similarities to eastern TN, eastern KY, WV, Western VA mountain areas. A lot of the people that settled the Ozarks were from those areas in the upper south. While it's southern, it differs from the deep south and the bootheel area you described. While both are southern, eastern TN varies greatly than central Mississippi.

Places like Branson, West Plains, Harrison, and Mountain Home Arkansas feel a lot more like Eastern TN than they do central Mississippi for example.

[EddieOlSkool]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

That "11 Nations" book calls the one "Greater Appalachia" and the other "Deep South".

Geographically speaking, according to its county-based map, none of Missouri lies in the latter; all of its "Southern" counties are in "Greater Appalachia."

As this territory includes all or most of the states identified commonly as "Mid-South" or "Upper South" (Arkansas, Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina) as well as West Virginia and parts of Virginia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois and Indiana, I'm willing to accept this distinction.

I think a lot of Missouri people would disagree. The Bootheel has a lot of Deep South influences including rural Blacks. That's not typical of Greater Appalachia. States within Greater Appalachia like Kentucky, Southern Indiana and Illinois don't have the rural Black populations (except Western Kentucky but the influence isn't large). The 11 nations map IMO should stretch the Deep South region just slightly into Missouri. It does stretch it into Memphis and I think the bootheel has more in common with Memphis than it does with most of Kentucky or the Ozarks.

[MOforthewin]

Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool

I think a lot of Missouri people would disagree. The Bootheel has a lot of Deep South influences including rural Blacks. That's not typical of Greater Appalachia. States within Greater Appalachia like Kentucky, Southern Indiana and Illinois don't have the rural Black populations (except Western Kentucky but the influence isn't large). The 11 nations map IMO should stretch the Deep South region just slightly into Missouri. It does stretch it into Memphis and I think the bootheel has more in common with Memphis than it does with most of Kentucky or the Ozarks.

That I agree on. The actual Bootheel, I mean the 3 counties that make up it are probably easily more southern than anywhere in Kentucky. They have more in common with SW TN and northern Mississippi.

[EddieOlSkool]

Originally Posted by MOforthewin

That I agree on. The actual Bootheel, I mean the 3 counties that make up it are probably easily more southern than anywhere in Kentucky. They have more in common with SW TN and northern Mississippi.

It's that Delta culture that makes its way up there. Basically the lower half of the Illinois Central Line. It's crazy how in a few hundred miles you can go from Midwestern to Deep South with very little Upper South transition period.

Now as far as KC goes, the actual metro has remnants of the Upper South but the city itself and its close burbs don't really. The Southern influence did leave behind marks in Jazz and Barbecue (and those were via the Deep South). Missouri is so interesting. Just driving from the bootheel to KC can give you a taste of three regions. And if you go through St. Louis you can practically feel like you traveled the whole country with its Northeast lite feel.

But see this is why I think Midwestern is the most accurate description of Kansas City. Because it is truly an indicator of MID that ever existed in the country. It's really a true middle city. Yes it looks West but I think the whole concept of the Midwest in general was built on looking West.

Besides even if KC Jazz is popular in Denver, there aren't really any Western cities with well known jazz, barbecue, or Southern lite leftover. That is something that the Midwest can lay claim to. Even places like Chicago were Southern influenced. The West honestly had more Yankee culture permeate it since Northerners had the biggest impact on the West (as far as Americans go).

[MOforthewin]

Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool

It's that Delta culture that makes its way up there. Basically the lower half of the Illinois Central Line. It's crazy how in a few hundred miles you can go from Midwestern to Deep South with very little Upper South transition period.

Now as far as KC goes, the actual metro has remnants of the Upper South but the city itself and its close burbs don't really. The Southern influence did leave behind marks in Jazz and Barbecue (and those were via the Deep South). Missouri is so interesting. Just driving from the bootheel to KC can give you a taste of three regions. And if you go through St. Louis you can practically feel like you traveled the whole country with its Northeast lite feel.

But see this is why I think Midwestern is the most accurate description of Kansas City. Because it is truly an indicator of MID that ever existed in the country. It's really a true middle city. Yes it looks West but I think the whole concept of the Midwest in general was built on looking West.

Besides even if KC Jazz is popular in Denver, there aren't really any Western cities with well known jazz, barbecue, or Southern lite leftover. That is something that the Midwest can lay claim to. Even places like Chicago were Southern influenced. The West honestly had more Yankee culture permeate it since Northerners had the biggest impact on the West (as far as Americans go).

Yea, we talked about it before. Most of Missouri there is that transition zone that starts just outside of St. Louis that is a gradual transition from Midwest to south like southern IN and IL are, but in far eastern Missouri there is very little transition zone in Cape Girardeau county. The northern part of Cape Girardeau county is Midwestern along with Perry County, then when you hit Jackson it is pretty much fully southern there. There is very little transition zone in Cape Girardeau county. It goes from Midwest to southern pretty quickly around Jackson.

You're correct about KC. The same with Stl to an extent too though. There are still some traces left in St. Louis of the past though. I don't know how to explain it but maybe it still has about 10-15 percent southern influences left at the most. Not enough to put it in the transition zone that starts south of town but there are some traces left. Just the overall feel is different just a bit compare to other Midwestern and lower Midwestern cities. Don't know how to put it though.

Just outside of Kansas City, the transition zone influences are stronger than the transition zone just outside St. Louis county that very gradually begins southern influence. Places like Lexington have quite a bit of southern influence left.

Why about 25 percent of Missouri is in the south, and the other 25 percent is a transition zone, in the state overall the southern influences are noticeable and it differs greatly from the other Midwestern states. Religion, politics, climate, southern accents in the southern quarter of the state, culture differs. None of the other Midwestern states have the large areas of Missouri that are southern Baptist or have the southern dialect line run through it that Missouri does. It certainly influences the state.

politics in MO have an evangelical twist to it such as abortion laws, and gun laws Missouri has better gun laws than most of the southern states now even. Minus Kansas, Missouri behaves differently than the rest of the Midwest. Indiana is close, but also doesn't have permit less carry or quite as good gun laws MO now has. Hopefully the gun bill passes in MO so you can carry your gun into just about any building in the state minus federal buildings and courtrooms.