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Old 09-06-2017, 07:46 PM
 
172 posts, read 152,782 times
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https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/...districts.html

As much praise as the P&L District receives, I agree its entertainment focus could one day pose a major risk of obsolescence as compared to more mixed use areas like River Market and Crossroads.

This is not intended to start a flame war, so respond with thoughtful commentary and leave your pitchfork in other threads.
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Old 09-07-2017, 05:40 PM
 
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I'm not logically getting what could be held at River Market or Crossroads that P&L couldn't also accomodate?

I think we need to consider real estate costs and the fact that P&L needs to generate high revenues which you don't get from farmers markets.

Regardless, I love all three and it's nice to see KC with multiple strong hubs for activity.
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Old 09-09-2017, 10:00 AM
 
172 posts, read 152,782 times
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If the P&L needs to generate high revenues, that speaks to the problem. That means the risks and consequences of failure are greater than an area like the Crossroads. As much as I like downtown development, P&L is overrated for what it offers the city. Compare P&L to a similarly sized development that includes businesses, housing, and entertainment, and you have something that's much more resilient.

P&L was better than pre-P&L, which was pretty much nothing downtown. I simply think it receives too much praise for what it offers, which is an entertainment district that could go out of style like a shopping mall.
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Old 09-09-2017, 08:24 PM
 
127 posts, read 131,091 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycrite View Post
If the P&L needs to generate high revenues, that speaks to the problem. That means the risks and consequences of failure are greater than an area like the Crossroads. As much as I like downtown development, P&L is overrated for what it offers the city. Compare P&L to a similarly sized development that includes businesses, housing, and entertainment, and you have something that's much more resilient.

P&L was better than pre-P&L, which was pretty much nothing downtown. I simply think it receives too much praise for what it offers, which is an entertainment district that could go out of style like a shopping mall.
I kinda agree with you. Yes, the PnL will eventually burn out but I think that it did it's job. The growth that you see simply wouldn't have happened without it. It was a massive domino effect. RM and crossroads were both next to dead before the PnL and likely would still be if not for that development.
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Old 09-11-2017, 07:08 PM
 
172 posts, read 152,782 times
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Originally Posted by twan2001 View Post
I kinda agree with you. Yes, the PnL will eventually burn out but I think that it did it's job. The growth that you see simply wouldn't have happened without it. It was a massive domino effect. RM and crossroads were both next to dead before the PnL and likely would still be if not for that development.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but it seemed like the Crossroads area was making its own headway. For instance, it already had decent restaurants, First Fridays, and living options like lofts.

Don't get me wrong, I think P&L provided benefit to downtown, but if it eventually burns out, what could possibly take its place? Hopefully, it burning out is never something that happens...
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Old 09-11-2017, 11:27 PM
 
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i wouldn't worry too much about it. Westport hasn't burned out in as many years as it's been open. people want to be downtown (especially visitors) so as downtown continues to grow so will the PnL. Whenever it does happen, it will be waaay down the line. And yes, there were good things happening in the crossroads but it wasn't growing anywhere near as quickly as it is now. The pnl has most definitely impacted that.
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
11,108 posts, read 23,774,572 times
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I don't see a problem with the P&L district. Yes, it was expensive to build, but it was well worth it. Most of what the city funded in the P&L district needed to be built anyway. The city's debt service is not really paying for the bars and restaurants. The actual structures of the district were a small part of the project and the money Cordish put into the project was more than enough to build that part of the project.

Most of the cost of the district and the reason so much of it was funded by the city was the city had to buy property, tear down buildings, the underground parking was extremely expensive (which is also used by the sprint center), all the very old utilities and sewers under most of the south side of downtown were replaced, the streets and sidewalks were all rebuilt, new streetlights and traffic signals installed, the Midland theater and Main St theater were both restored as well. All of this needed to be done anyway. Had the P&L district not been built, only a fraction of the residential and hotel construction that downtown is seeing now would be getting built.

The district itself is a canned entertainment district that caters to tourists and suburbanites. There is nothing wrong with that. Every city needs such a place and it compliments areas like the Plaza, Crossroads, Westport and River Market. However, with all the new apartments now going up in the area, I'm sure even downtown residents use the P&L district more than people think.

I don't see a problem down the road with the future of the district either. It will continue to be a meeting place for metro wide events and even if it were to lose it's draw as a nightlife district I think it will easily convert into something else such as more retail or more mixed use by adding hotel and apartments to the core of the district. I think it will be a while before KC has to worry about that. The P&L district is very healthy right now and continues to get better.
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Old 09-15-2017, 11:07 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
14,050 posts, read 8,917,671 times
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The "problem" with the P&L district is the debt service, which constrains the city's ability to do other things, protestations from City Hall to the contrary notwithstanding.

The money Cordish put into the project may have been enough to build KC Live! proper, but the company did receive subsidies - to the tune of $70 million, Cordish officials told me - for its development, which is not just KC Live!

That Strong Towns essay refers to "overnight" and "naturally occurring" entertainment districts. Crossroads and Westport are examples of the latter. I was surprised to learn that Crossroads' First Friday gallery crawl is as old as the one in Philadelphia's Old City district (I now live there). Generally, "organic" urban districts are more durable than "overnight" ones - but the Country Club Plaza demonstrates that purpose-built urban districts can be equally durable if done right.

What will prevent the P&L district from going the way of, say, Bannister Mall is the deliberate injection of mixed uses into it in the form of those two new apartment towers. But they're subsidized too.

What else can I say on this subject? Well, I said this two years ago.
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