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View Poll Results: How "Southern" is Kansas City?
Significantly more Midwestern than Southern 78 72.22%
Moderately more Midwestern than Southern 21 19.44%
Moderately more Southern than Midwestern 1 0.93%
Significantly more Southern than Midwestern 1 0.93%
About equally Midwestern and Southern 7 6.48%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-24-2019, 02:48 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
8,133 posts, read 3,963,712 times
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I'll just note this:

Colin Woodard, the author of the recent book "American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America," puts both Kansas City and St. Louis (and Philadelphia, where I live now) in the same nation - the one he calls "The Midlands."

But if you look at his map, the U.S. part of which is county-based, St. Louis City sits at the tip of a peninsula that stretches from the main body of "The Midlands" along the eastern Missouri counties that hug the Missouri River. St. Louis is otherwise surrounded by "Greater Appalachia" - the "upper South."

Everything to Jackson County's north, east and west lies in "The Midlands." So does the row of counties to its south, including Johnson and Cass in Missouri and Miami, Franklin and Osage in Kansas. The southern borders of these counties is the border between "The Midlands" and "Greater Appalachia." (And the southern borders of Cass, Miami and Franklin counties are also the southern borders of the Kansas City MSA, and the southern border of Johnson County, Mo., is the southern border of the Kansas City CSA.)

So, the "Burnt District" notwithstanding, metropolitan Kansas City is solidly in the Midlands but on the border with the Upper South, while only four of the counties in metropolitan St. Louis (St. Louis City, St. Louis County, St. Charles County, Warren County) lie in that nation, with the rest in the Upper South, including all of the Illinois counties in the metro.

That arguably - very arguably - supports a claim that St. Louis, its support for the Union and German heritage aside, is "more Southern" than Kansas City.

It's probably best to say, as Woodard does, that both cities are Midwestern - but then add that they have some residual or proximate Southern influences in them.
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Old 10-24-2019, 03:59 AM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
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I think KC is slightly more Southern than Juneau. Maybe.

Some of this "Is Such-In-Such Southern?" Is getting out of hand.
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Old 10-24-2019, 04:37 AM
 
45 posts, read 18,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
I'll just note this:

Colin Woodard, the author of the recent book "American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America," puts both Kansas City and St. Louis (and Philadelphia, where I live now) in the same nation - the one he calls "The Midlands."

But if you look at his map, the U.S. part of which is county-based, St. Louis City sits at the tip of a peninsula that stretches from the main body of "The Midlands" along the eastern Missouri counties that hug the Missouri River. St. Louis is otherwise surrounded by "Greater Appalachia" - the "upper South."

Everything to Jackson County's north, east and west lies in "The Midlands." So does the row of counties to its south, including Johnson and Cass in Missouri and Miami, Franklin and Osage in Kansas. The southern borders of these counties is the border between "The Midlands" and "Greater Appalachia." (And the southern borders of Cass, Miami and Franklin counties are also the southern borders of the Kansas City MSA, and the southern border of Johnson County, Mo., is the southern border of the Kansas City CSA.)

So, the "Burnt District" notwithstanding, metropolitan Kansas City is solidly in the Midlands but on the border with the Upper South, while only four of the counties in metropolitan St. Louis (St. Louis City, St. Louis County, St. Charles County, Warren County) lie in that nation, with the rest in the Upper South, including all of the Illinois counties in the metro.

That arguably - very arguably - supports a claim that St. Louis, its support for the Union and German heritage aside, is "more Southern" than Kansas City.

It's probably best to say, as Woodard does, that both cities are Midwestern - but then add that they have some residual or proximate Southern influences in them.
St. Louis is not the Upper South at all. The South doesn’t begin until about 100 miles south of St. Louis. Most of Missouri is in the Midwest.
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Old 10-24-2019, 06:00 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
8,133 posts, read 3,963,712 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claytonian4 View Post
St. Louis is not the Upper South at all. The South doesn’t begin until about 100 miles south of St. Louis. Most of Missouri is in the Midwest.
Actually, I tell people up this way that "Missouri is the nation in microcosm."

It was literally split in two by the Civil War in a way not even Maryland (the next closest "border state" to Missouri in how the war affected it) was.

But no, and I repeat, no Southern state observed Lincoln's Birthday as a state holiday when it stood apart from Washington's Birthday (IOW, before the establishment of "Presidents' Day" by the Monday Holiday Bill in the early 1970s). Missouri did - and, of course, its premier HBCU is named for the Great Emancipator.

I shoot down people who say that Missouri is Southern the way you shoot down people who say St. Louis is Southern.

But I would also say that to deny the presence of Southern culture or influence in Missouri, even in its non-Southern parts, is also wrong. The state still wrestles with its Southern legacy today. (I know that money more than anything else lay behind Mizzou's bolting the Big 12 for the SEC, but this son of a Jayhawk mom still considers the move a betrayal of sorts.)

And to say that St. Louis lies at the tip of a Midwestern "peninsula" surrounded by a different culture, and that culture is more Southern, may not be inaccurate either; does the Hannibal of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn sound Midwestern to you? It may not be "Gone with the Wind" country, but the Mississippi River of the paddle-wheel steamers and "Mark Twain" doesn't really strike me as a Midwestern stream. (It's undeniably that at Davenport, though.)

Is Cape Girardeau 100 miles south of St. Louis? You're definitely in the "Southern" part of Missouri there.

Come to think of it, didn't I draw a parallel between St. Louis and Baltimore upthread? Baltimore sure doesn't look, act or feel like a Southern city either, but you do know which two states had their border dispute settled with the Mason-Dixon Line, right? And which state lies to the south of it? (The "Maryland Welcomes You" signs on I-95 southbound as you leave Delaware also have signs below them noting that you have crossed the Mason-Dixon Line. Maryland's state flag, the coolest of all 50, was adopted in 1905 as a symbol of reconciliation between the state's Confederate and Union partisans.)
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Old 10-24-2019, 08:39 AM
 
45 posts, read 18,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Actually, I tell people up this way that "Missouri is the nation in microcosm."

It was literally split in two by the Civil War in a way not even Maryland (the next closest "border state" to Missouri in how the war affected it) was.

But no, and I repeat, no Southern state observed Lincoln's Birthday as a state holiday when it stood apart from Washington's Birthday (IOW, before the establishment of "Presidents' Day" by the Monday Holiday Bill in the early 1970s). Missouri did - and, of course, its premier HBCU is named for the Great Emancipator.

I shoot down people who say that Missouri is Southern the way you shoot down people who say St. Louis is Southern.

But I would also say that to deny the presence of Southern culture or influence in Missouri, even in its non-Southern parts, is also wrong. The state still wrestles with its Southern legacy today. (I know that money more than anything else lay behind Mizzou's bolting the Big 12 for the SEC, but this son of a Jayhawk mom still considers the move a betrayal of sorts.)

And to say that St. Louis lies at the tip of a Midwestern "peninsula" surrounded by a different culture, and that culture is more Southern, may not be inaccurate either; does the Hannibal of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn sound Midwestern to you? It may not be "Gone with the Wind" country, but the Mississippi River of the paddle-wheel steamers and "Mark Twain" doesn't really strike me as a Midwestern stream. (It's undeniably that at Davenport, though.)

Is Cape Girardeau 100 miles south of St. Louis? You're definitely in the "Southern" part of Missouri there.

Come to think of it, didn't I draw a parallel between St. Louis and Baltimore upthread? Baltimore sure doesn't look, act or feel like a Southern city either, but you do know which two states had their border dispute settled with the Mason-Dixon Line, right? And which state lies to the south of it? (The "Maryland Welcomes You" signs on I-95 southbound as you leave Delaware also have signs below them noting that you have crossed the Mason-Dixon Line. Maryland's state flag, the coolest of all 50, was adopted in 1905 as a symbol of reconciliation between the state's Confederate and Union partisans.)
St. Louis’ culture isn’t Southern. In any part of the metro. As someone who has lived here my whole life I can attest to this. Missouri has Southern influences except in the Southern quarter of the state which is actually the South. Huckleberry Finn was written 160 years ago. Missouri is not even remotely similar to what it was back then. As far as the Mason Dixon line that is not the boundary of the South today.
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Old 10-24-2019, 08:15 PM
 
639 posts, read 604,888 times
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I've traveled a lot around the country. In my humble opinion KC is most like Omaha and Cincinnati, Omaha is solidly midwestern. St Louis to me, seems a blend of Memphis, New Orleans and Baltimore. I don't see any similarities between KC and STL other than both being in the same state.
,
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Old 10-24-2019, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
11,454 posts, read 8,219,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoNative34 View Post
Oh, ajf131, stlouisan, nlst..... You're not being nice.
LOL.

Quote:
demographically, culturally, linguistically, politically,
Where have we heard those words before?
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Old 10-25-2019, 02:31 PM
 
45 posts, read 18,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
LOL.



Where have we heard those words before?
Why don’t you spend less time poking fun at me and focus more on the factual statements I provide. You know I’m right. I’m not gonna waste my time on people who are gonna act immature and make fun of me when I can beat any one of you in this debate we are having.
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Old 10-25-2019, 02:53 PM
 
45 posts, read 18,056 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Actually, I tell people up this way that "Missouri is the nation in microcosm."

It was literally split in two by the Civil War in a way not even Maryland (the next closest "border state" to Missouri in how the war affected it) was.

But no, and I repeat, no Southern state observed Lincoln's Birthday as a state holiday when it stood apart from Washington's Birthday (IOW, before the establishment of "Presidents' Day" by the Monday Holiday Bill in the early 1970s). Missouri did - and, of course, its premier HBCU is named for the Great Emancipator.

I shoot down people who say that Missouri is Southern the way you shoot down people who say St. Louis is Southern.

But I would also say that to deny the presence of Southern culture or influence in Missouri, even in its non-Southern parts, is also wrong. The state still wrestles with its Southern legacy today. (I know that money more than anything else lay behind Mizzou's bolting the Big 12 for the SEC, but this son of a Jayhawk mom still considers the move a betrayal of sorts.)

And to say that St. Louis lies at the tip of a Midwestern "peninsula" surrounded by a different culture, and that culture is more Southern, may not be inaccurate either; does the Hannibal of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn sound Midwestern to you? It may not be "Gone with the Wind" country, but the Mississippi River of the paddle-wheel steamers and "Mark Twain" doesn't really strike me as a Midwestern stream. (It's undeniably that at Davenport, though.)

Is Cape Girardeau 100 miles south of St. Louis? You're definitely in the "Southern" part of Missouri there.

Come to think of it, didn't I draw a parallel between St. Louis and Baltimore upthread? Baltimore sure doesn't look, act or feel like a Southern city either, but you do know which two states had their border dispute settled with the Mason-Dixon Line, right? And which state lies to the south of it? (The "Maryland Welcomes You" signs on I-95 southbound as you leave Delaware also have signs below them noting that you have crossed the Mason-Dixon Line. Maryland's state flag, the coolest of all 50, was adopted in 1905 as a symbol of reconciliation between the state's Confederate and Union partisans.)
Hannibal is not Southern today: it’s thoroughly Midwestern. The Mississippi is not a Southern stream in modern times. Anybody who thinks that has never visited the area. I know US 61 between Hannibal and St. Louis as good as anybody as well as I-55 from St. Louis to Cape Girardeau. St. Louis is not an island surrounded by Southern culture. The Mississippi from Hannibal to Cape Girardeau is Midwestern, not Southern. St. Louis bears little if any resemblance to Memphis and New Orleans and a lot more to Chicago, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, and Minneapolis. Another distinguishing feature I forgot to mention is that St. Louis has a huge Lutheran population. That is not something any Southern city has. Rural Missouri is Southern Baptist, an undeniable Southern influence. But in terms of dialect and ancestry, the state is more in line with the Midwest (German ancestry by majority, only a quarter of the state speaks the Southern dialect). But again, we’ve been through this before and I’m just repeating myself. St. Louis and Kansas City are both solidly Midwestern cities today. Period.
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Old 10-26-2019, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
8,133 posts, read 3,963,712 times
Reputation: 5265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claytonian4 View Post
Hannibal is not Southern today: it?€™s thoroughly Midwestern. The Mississippi is not a Southern stream in modern times. Anybody who thinks that has never visited the area. I know US 61 between Hannibal and St. Louis as good as anybody as well as I-55 from St. Louis to Cape Girardeau. St. Louis is not an island surrounded by Southern culture. The Mississippi from Hannibal to Cape Girardeau is Midwestern, not Southern. St. Louis bears little if any resemblance to Memphis and New Orleans and a lot more to Chicago, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, and Minneapolis. Another distinguishing feature I forgot to mention is that St. Louis has a huge Lutheran population. That is not something any Southern city has. Rural Missouri is Southern Baptist, an undeniable Southern influence. But in terms of dialect and ancestry, the state is more in line with the Midwest (German ancestry by majority, only a quarter of the state speaks the Southern dialect). But again, we?€™ve been through this before and I?€™m just repeating myself. St. Louis and Kansas City are both solidly Midwestern cities today. Period.
Good points all, and you know I agree with your last sentence.

We're sort of "haggling over price" here.

To sort of back you up on the "it's not at the tip of a peninsula" (I didn't call it an "island") part: I don't think anyone in their right mind would confuse Edwardsville, Ill., for Cairo, Ill. Edwardsville is even more like Quincy than it is like Carbondale (home to Southern Illinois University's main campus; the Edwardsville one was built from scratch in 1965).

But once again, to throw in a few changeups:

There is a more noticeable Southern Baptist presence in Greater Kansas City than there is in metropolitan St. Louis.

And while the German presence is indeed very strong in St. Louis - the city was rivaled only by Milwaukee as a center of beer brewing, and it's still home to the largest brewery in the US*, though a Belgian company owns it now - it's nearly nonexistent in KC.

Kansas City barbecue would not have become the phenomenon it is had this African-American fellow named Henry Perry not moved there from Memphis in 1921 and set up a barbecue stand there. Both of KC's best-known (but no longer best) Q joints trace their origins to Perry's stand, and KC and Memphis Q are kissing cousins. What KC supplied was the raw materials.

I'm not sure I'd agree with you on St. Louis resembling Minneapolis. Grain elevators seem to me relatively thin on the ground in St. Louis. KC has more of those - and it ranked second to Minneapolis as a grain handling and milling center in my youth (and I think still does now). The other cities on your list, yes, including its cross-state younger sibling.

Yeah, Missouri and both of its big cities are definitely Midwestern. But it's still complicated.

*Interesting (at least to me) factoid: Bottles and cans of Budweiser beer used to indicate which Anheuser-Busch brewery produced them: "Brewed by Anheuser-Busch, Inc., of St. Louis, Mo., at [in the places where I've lived since leaving Missouri: Merrimack, N.H. | Newark, N.J. - I forget how many breweries A-B operates; the one in Williamsburg, Va., is very well known because of the theme park A-B built next to it]. The company stopped the practice once Bud drinkers outside the Midwest started paying a premium for Budweiser brewed "at St. Louis, Mo." - on the grounds that "Gussie Busch drinks the stuff himself." I did go on the A-B brewery tour one Christmas season when I visited Mom when she lived in that gated community on the St. Louis-University City line just north of the Washington University campus; it ends with free samples of Bud - and I thought that the Bud brewed there did taste better than what I could get in Philadelphia.
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