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The break from Midwest to South crossing the Ohio River is more gradual than some people give it credit as well. I have been across S IL and realize that it remains quite similar to KY until you cross I-64 with the far southern tip of IL having stronger Scotish-Irish ancestry and having a more classic Upper South feel. This area is also covered in the Paducah DMA (so its news source and even a lot of the economic development of the region comes from Paducah). It should be noted that a good chunk of central and eastern Kentucky is actually further north than southern IL. Another interesting thing I have noticed is that the IN counties across from Louisville act more like KentuckyUpper Southish than SW IN (Evansville area). Not exactly sure why that is so I won't speculate.
Missouri is an absolute mess to try and classify. The Ozarks, SE Missouri, and especially the Boothill are southern in my view. The question is where to you put that Midwestern/Southern line. Even then pockets of N MO have some similarities with the upper south that you don't quite see in Central IL or IN.
There are a lot of Geographical Oddities in this region as well which makes things very tough especially if you are classifying things specifically based on Geography and/or State Boundaries:
- The Missouri Boothill is as far south as Nashville,
- The Southern tip of IL is closer to Memphis and even parts of North Mississippi than it is to Chicago.
- Many areas of IL/IN south of I-64 is further south than Louisville and even Lexington, KY.
- There is a part of Fulton County Kentucky (Kentucky Bend) that is west of a full county (Mississippi County) in Missouri.
- The Mississippi Embayment (a physiographic feature that covers the lower MS valley) goes as far north as the far southern tip of IL. This is called the Jackson Purchase in Kentucky.
Here are a couple of maps showing the Midwest. Kentucky, none of the state, is included in the Midwest. I've looked at dozens of maps and can't find even one that shows KY is part of the Midwest. I'm certain one is out there if someone tries hard enough to find it. It's not even considered southern Midwest.
The only differences I see in most maps that classify the Midwest by state is that a few have Oklahoma (be thankful we are not arguing over Oklahoma because that state is at least as tricky if not trickier to classify than Missouri). Remember that geographical areas don't always follow state borders. For instance, far southern IL is almost like a whole different state compared to Central and Northern IL or Chicago. For the most part, Kentucky has a somewhat similar culture throughout but there are places where some Midwestern and even Deep South culture (Purchase plus Christian County) has made some influences.
The only portions of Kentucky that one could classify as Midwestern would be the following; the three northern KY counties across from Cincinnati, portions of the city of Louisville, and portions of the city of Henderson. Even in those cases, I would classify those as Southern/Midwestern hybrids. The rest of the state is pretty solidly Upper South (some Deep South influence for the Purchase and Christian County but still overall Upper South) and is much closer to Middle Tennessee and Northern Alabama versus Central IL/IN/OH.
I also would classify the southern and southeastern parts of Missouri (I would say along and south of a Joplin to Rolla to Ste. Genevieve line but the exact line placement is up for debate) as Southern even though Missouri as a whole is considered Midwestern, but that is another tough call. South of I-64 in IL is a Midwestern/Southern hybrid that gets a bit more southern the closer one gets to the Ohio River, while the rest of IL is solidly Midwestern.
Back to the Topic which should of been posted in the General USA forum:
The main two differences between the Upper Midwest and the Lower Midwest (which for the most part doesn't cover a significant part of KY) are how harsh the winters are and the common ancestry.
In the lower part of the Midwest (Northern MO, Indy, Cincinnati, Dayton, etc.) there is still some southern influences especially Protestant faith although the area is still solidly Midwestern, unlike the Upper South the common ancestry is German and not Scotish-Irish or English. Winters are milder and the climate is right on the Humid Continental/Subtropical border. The upper Midwest (Chicago, Cleveland, Des Monies, Fargo, Green Bay, Twin Cities, etc.) doesn't have the southern influence and the winters are much harsher. There is more of an Italian and even Scandavenian influence in places that you don't see in the lower Midwest.
The only differences I see in most maps that classify the Midwest by state is that a few have Oklahoma (be thankful we are not arguing over Oklahoma because that state is at least as tricky if not trickier to classify than Missouri). Remember that geographical areas don't always follow state borders. For instance, far southern IL is almost like a whole different state compared to Central and Northern IL or Chicago. For the most part, Kentucky has a somewhat similar culture throughout but there are places where some Midwestern and even Deep South culture (Purchase plus Christian County) has made some influences.
The only portions of Kentucky that one could classify as Midwestern would be the following; the three northern KY counties across from Cincinnati, portions of the city of Louisville, and portions of the city of Henderson. Even in those cases, I would classify those as Southern/Midwestern hybrids. The rest of the state is pretty solidly Upper South (some Deep South influence for the Purchase and Christian County but still overall Upper South) and is much closer to Middle Tennessee and Northern Alabama versus Central IL/IN/OH.
I also would classify the southern and southeastern parts of Missouri (I would say along and south of a Joplin to Rolla to Ste. Genevieve line but the exact line placement is up for debate) as Southern even though Missouri as a whole is considered Midwestern, but that is another tough call. South of I-64 in IL is a Midwestern/Southern hybrid that gets a bit more southern the closer one gets to the Ohio River, while the rest of IL is solidly Midwestern.
Back to the Topic which should of been posted in the General USA forum:
The main two differences between the Upper Midwest and the Lower Midwest (which for the most part doesn't cover a significant part of KY) are how harsh the winters are and the common ancestry.
In the lower part of the Midwest (Northern MO, Indy, Cincinnati, Dayton, etc.) there is still some southern influences especially Protestant faith although the area is still solidly Midwestern, unlike the Upper South the common ancestry is German and not Scotish-Irish or English. Winters are milder and the climate is right on the Humid Continental/Subtropical border. The upper Midwest (Chicago, Cleveland, Des Monies, Fargo, Green Bay, Twin Cities, etc.) doesn't have the southern influence and the winters are much harsher. There is more of an Italian and even Scandavenian influence in places that you don't see in the lower Midwest.
That's all truly interesting. I personally enjoy looking at and learning about various demographics and how they relate to different states.
My only point is that since Kentucky is not, never has been a Midwestern state nor classified as one, why is this topic even in the Kentucky forum as you've already alluded to? I'm just asking. The Purchase area of Kentucky, Louisville and the most northern tip of KY closest to Cincinnati are not classified as part of the Midwest despite who has moved there or their geographic locations. How a person feels about an area or it's vibes, doesn't change what it factually is.
None of Kentucky can easily be classified as Midwestern or even lower Midwestern because factually it's not a Midwestern state. If one wants to discuss demographics without trying to reclassify what a state is, that's different.
Last edited by marino760; 06-24-2017 at 07:37 AM..
The only differences I see in most maps that classify the Midwest by state is that a few have Oklahoma (be thankful we are not arguing over Oklahoma because that state is at least as tricky if not trickier to classify than Missouri). Remember that geographical areas don't always follow state borders. For instance, far southern IL is almost like a whole different state compared to Central and Northern IL or Chicago. For the most part, Kentucky has a somewhat similar culture throughout but there are places where some Midwestern and even Deep South culture (Purchase plus Christian County) has made some influences.
The only portions of Kentucky that one could classify as Midwestern would be the following; the three northern KY counties across from Cincinnati, portions of the city of Louisville, and portions of the city of Henderson. Even in those cases, I would classify those as Southern/Midwestern hybrids. The rest of the state is pretty solidly Upper South (some Deep South influence for the Purchase and Christian County but still overall Upper South) and is much closer to Middle Tennessee and Northern Alabama versus Central IL/IN/OH.
I also would classify the southern and southeastern parts of Missouri (I would say along and south of a Joplin to Rolla to Ste. Genevieve line but the exact line placement is up for debate) as Southern even though Missouri as a whole is considered Midwestern, but that is another tough call. South of I-64 in IL is a Midwestern/Southern hybrid that gets a bit more southern the closer one gets to the Ohio River, while the rest of IL is solidly Midwestern.
Back to the Topic which should of been posted in the General USA forum:
The main two differences between the Upper Midwest and the Lower Midwest (which for the most part doesn't cover a significant part of KY) are how harsh the winters are and the common ancestry.
In the lower part of the Midwest (Northern MO, Indy, Cincinnati, Dayton, etc.) there is still some southern influences especially Protestant faith although the area is still solidly Midwestern, unlike the Upper South the common ancestry is German and not Scotish-Irish or English. Winters are milder and the climate is right on the Humid Continental/Subtropical border. The upper Midwest (Chicago, Cleveland, Des Monies, Fargo, Green Bay, Twin Cities, etc.) doesn't have the southern influence and the winters are much harsher. There is more of an Italian and even Scandavenian influence in places that you don't see in the lower Midwest.
This is one of the best posts I have read, in my opinion, explaining the lower Midwest/Upper South Hybrid that encompasses Southern IL, IN, OH and the States of Kentucky and Missouri. I agree with most points of this post. But I will state that Kentucky is Southern in all it's way, including most of NKY. Boone, Kenton and Campbell counties may lean and identify more with Cincinnati, but the culture is still predominantly Upper South, they are just tied in with the Cinci TV market, and I think that along with the economy influences them a bit. I think geography is important and the fact that those counties are below the Ohio River, by default makes them Southern. To the outside, they are Southern as well. Saturday Night Live even did a skit about Trump Voters and the setting they used was Boone County, KY, and they used all the Southern stereotypes in the skit.
I think the bigger comparison to be made is how different the lower Midwest is from the Upper Midwest. When I first moved to Kentucky from Cleveland, I lived in Florence. Let me tell you, I experienced a lot of culture shock. There was very little in common with Northern Ohio and Southern Ohio and NKY.
IMO native dialect is the most powerful gauge on regional identity. Unfortunately regional dialects are beginning to fade especially with millennials so it is really difficult to distinguish between regions these days. With that said this is probably the best dialect map I have seen. It is a work in progress spanning several years put together by a professional linguist. He goes to great links to find native speakers in each area.
I always thought Kentucky all of it was in the South. Southern IN and Southern ILL have some southern like elements like being conservative and evangelical but are still in the Midwest on the map. I was always taught in schools that Kentucky all of it was in the South. Many people in the Southern states do not consider KY, WV and Oklahoma the South and even Texas the south. I was taught in schools Oklahoma and Texas were in the Southwest. It is all semantics.
I always thought Kentucky all of it was in the South. Southern IN and Southern ILL have some southern like elements like being conservative and evangelical but are still in the Midwest on the map. I was always taught in schools that Kentucky all of it was in the South. Many people in the Southern states do not consider KY, WV and Oklahoma the South and even Texas the south. I was taught in schools Oklahoma and Texas were in the Southwest. It is all semantics.
I was taught the same, that all of Kentucky was the South. I also was taught that OK and TX were Southwest and in school we watched "Oklahoma!" and that screamed Southwest to me.
I grew up in Madisonville, Kentucky in the western part of the state. Our major media market was Evansville IN. I have many relatives in the Louisville/La Grange KY area as well as in the Paducah area. While I moved away for college and have never lived there since, I travel back frequently mostly heading south through Illinois. I have a brother who lives in Champaign and his wife is from the Pontiac IL area btwn Champaign and Chicago.
For me there was always a stark difference once you travelled south of Effingham. Once you got to about Salem IL you hit the trees and for me that is where the south begins as by Mt Vernon and then to Evansville IN and south from there into W KY and southern IL there is a marked southern accent. Very different than Champaign-Indy corridor. So western and southern Kentucky are very southern in culture, talk and in everything. Louisville area is a mix, as someone posted. There are strong southern influences, such as the Derby and its rituals/celebrations. But also some Midwestern influence as well.
My older brother's wife is from Louisville and she lives in La Grange, KY and she has everybit of a southern accent as my sister who lives near Paducah.
Louisville and the tri-county northern Kentucky region are lower Midwestern locales with Southern overtones.
The rest of Kentucky, definitively Southern. Even the suburban areas around Louisville, such as La Grange, Simpsonville, and Mount Washington, feel and are Southern.
Grant and Bracken Counties, still rural northern Kentucky but not part of the tri-county region across the river from Cincinnati, feel and are Southern.
Henderson County, immediately across the river from Evansville, IN, feels and is quite a bit different from Evansville. You could argue that Evansville, like Louisville and NKY, is a lower Midwestern city with Southern overtones; while that generally is accurate, it also functions more Midwestern culturally than Louisville and NKY.
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