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I was talking to a family friend that was a teacher here in the 1960s, and she said they functioned on incredibally tight budgets, low pay and class sizes up to 40 a class.......but test scores were higher and graduation rates were higher.....why? They were allowed to actually flunk failing students. Another teacher that my husband runs into daily says if he attemtps to fail more students than his school wants, he's met with threats of being fired. The parents want "Jonny" to pass no matter what, and they demand it.
I get the feeling that no amount of money is going to fix this situation. The core problem is the power has been taken from the teacher to actually TEACH and DISCIPLINE and too much time is wasted on beauracracy, too many Fridays off for "teacher in service days", too many constant continuing education guidelines.
Maybe I'd get it for a specialized high school class like Science or Math to require education updates, but in elementary, it's ridiculous. And the teachers are forced do so many of these classes on their own time.
When I was in elementary (70s and 80s) here in the valley, I was rezoned to a new school that was only half-built, so three classes were forced into one with only a small divider to distance us. We could clearly hear the other teachers, so the students were expected to keep their mouths shut while others were working. My teachers didn't put up with bad behavior and they had the support of the prinicpals and the parents where that was concerened. Unfortunately lack of parent concern and the fear on the part of the school to actually fail an underperforming student has helped to create this mess. Maybe the school district needs to give the teachers back the power, stop telling them HOW to teach and just let them do it. The constant micro-management is a hinderance.
My teens are at a perochial school. Students that don't get the grades or behave have to leave. What a concept! And parents MUST volunteer time (ten hours a year/one a month). If that is absolutely impossible due to health or work schedule, a fee can be fined that goes towards the students. Why is this such a hard concept? Our parents are expected to help coach sports and the students have to buy there own uniforms and rent their own band instruments. Instead of cutting the sports and extracurriclars, get the parents more involved.
I say that we need to go back to running things the way it was done 30 years ago or more. I had a public education here and it was actually pretty darn good. I WANTED to learn.....that and I was afraid of the principles paddle, lol!
Sorry, stepping off my soapbox now........
Last edited by happyhunting; 03-25-2011 at 01:05 PM..
Unless you bash and berate teachers, few on this board will post a reply.
By the way, I agree 100% with your thoughts on education and the shackles on teachers and other caring adults to truly reform the system of education in this country. I left public school teaching years ago to join an independent school (where teachers can truly be "independent" and hold students and their parents accountable) and it was the best move I ever made.
Unless you bash and berate teachers, few on this board will post a reply.
By the way, I agree 100% with your thoughts on education and the shackles on teachers and other caring adults to truly reform the system of education in this country. I left public school teaching years ago to join an independent school (where teachers can truly be "independent" and hold students and their parents accountable) and it was the best move I ever made.
There was an article I read about an Ohio principal who helped turn around a failing High School. There is no way the teachers can do it alone and need involvement from administrators, parents and the community.
Company Aids Ohio High School's Comeback - CBS Evening News - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/26/eveningnews/main2299083.shtml - broken link)
great post, hh. I agree with everything you said. More money will not help this situation. Watched a documentary the other night...Waiting For Superman. While it did address some specific educational situations...it did not address the obvious, IMO.
That was a great movie, but it only addressed certain areas of the country and mostly the sysytem of a raffle to get in. The lady that used to run the Wash D.C. school district is a pitbull and needs to be hired in Nevada to smacj people around and get things right. Doing a voucher sysytem has helped a lot of places as you can send your kid to a school of your choice, private or public. If you choose a private school, they have to accept you based on certain requirements, but are more harsh as you are usually thrown out for things you can get away with in CCSD. They also have to come up with a foolproof su=ystem to get rid of bad teachers and ones that have lost the desire. My wife graduated with a 4.0 Masters degree in Elementary Ed, has taught for math 7 years and won 3 teacher of the year awards and can not be hired in CCSD unless she passes 2 more Praxis tests, which do nothing to prove what kind of teacher you are. My best friend has written 2 math textbooks, has 3 masters and a phd and taught college math for 6 years and failed the praxis. He said 75% of that he had never heard of and these tests are a waste of time. Truly great teachers just love to teach children and need to be given a little leeway in doing this. No Child Left Behind has ruined the educational sysytem of America and needs to be done away with. Teaching to a specific test is useless, go back to teaching like it used to be and make productive people out of these young minds.
Coronado and the magnet high schools graduate 90% or more. There are no indications that Bishop Gorman or Faith Lutheran turn out better students than the magnets and the top 15 high schools.
There are actually no studies that say vouchers or charter schools do any good. Lots of opinion...no facts.
The recent LA Times series made it quite clear that no one actually knows who the good teachers are...
The hiring of teachers in CCSD is actually pretty tight...but on a basis of certain pedagogical requirements. Now if we only knew they had something to do with student performance.
The problem in any big school system lies in the lower half or quarter of the student body. These are demographic groups that are unlikely to provide parental support or motivated students. That is what the schools have to work with...and the problem is they miserable screw up that task.
Money can certainly help. You cut the number of students in a class in half and you get a much tighter interaction between student and teacher. You offer combat pay for the bad schools...say a 50% bonus...and provide teacher aids and support far better than in the upper class areas. Then watch things get better...that is if we can figure out what better actually is...
It is also reasonably clear that performance and funding are well linked. Certainly not the only variable but a strong one.
That was a great movie, but it only addressed certain areas of the country and mostly the sysytem of a raffle to get in. The lady that used to run the Wash D.C. school district is a pitbull and needs to be hired in Nevada to smacj people around and get things right. Doing a voucher sysytem has helped a lot of places as you can send your kid to a school of your choice, private or public. If you choose a private school, they have to accept you based on certain requirements, but are more harsh as you are usually thrown out for things you can get away with in CCSD. They also have to come up with a foolproof su=ystem to get rid of bad teachers and ones that have lost the desire. My wife graduated with a 4.0 Masters degree in Elementary Ed, has taught for math 7 years and won 3 teacher of the year awards and can not be hired in CCSD unless she passes 2 more Praxis tests, which do nothing to prove what kind of teacher you are. My best friend has written 2 math textbooks, has 3 masters and a phd and taught college math for 6 years and failed the praxis. He said 75% of that he had never heard of and these tests are a waste of time. Truly great teachers just love to teach children and need to be given a little leeway in doing this. No Child Left Behind has ruined the educational sysytem of America and needs to be done away with. Teaching to a specific test is useless, go back to teaching like it used to be and make productive people out of these young minds.
The movie Waiting for Superman is a propaganda piece backed by hedge fund managers and other wealthy people looking to use education as the next bubble. Here is a quote from an article by Alan Singer, an education professor at Hofstra University:
"Teachers’ unions are also being pressed by massive cuts in education budgets in a number of states, including New York. In New York City, the mayor is using the threat of 4,600 layoffs to spur a campaign to mortally wound the union by ending seniority rights. He has received support from wealthy foundations and even wealthier hedge-fund operators who see breaking the teachers’ unions as a major step toward privatizing education and turning schools into for-profit institutions."
This is just one example of the scam being perpetrated on the public regarding education.
As for Michelle Rhee, the former chancellor of D.C. schools, she quit when her guardian, the mayor of D.C. was sent packing. She is a failed teacher, who at one point in her career, duct taped a student to punish him for poor behavior. Many of these so-called "reformers" are failed teachers or morons with no teaching experience selling a bill of goods so they can make a quick buck.
The research proven, number one factor in student performance is the level of poverty. This is an inconvenient fact that the "reformers" choose to ignore. Also, your point regarding teachers being allowed to teach and not meet politically expedient requirements is accurate. Also, requiring at least 10 years of successful continuous teaching experience before anyone is allowed to become an administrator would go a long way in improving the teaching profession.
-There are also no studies that tell us that public schools are better than private..I only know from personal experience and the experiences of about 10 family members. I have taught in both, my kids have attended both, and I have served on the boards of both, you CAN see a differnce, it is a big one. This argument is always opinion! Vouchers would give parents who want thier kids to learn a better opportunity to take them to a school they can do that in. That is also about the only way to get to move a child as the law lately has shown by punishing a parent to jail time because she wanted so badly for her kids to get a better education that she put her ex's address on the paperwork and got caught.
-As a teacher, you and the others in a school can tell who are the "bad" teachers..just too hard to get rid of them right now
-You can also find plenty of quotes and articles about how great a movie it was and how that trimming the power of the unions' will help as they have become too powerful and do not help. It pointed out many irregularties in the system and maybe one day someone will take this bull by the horns and get something done to help the kids. I was in the union in Vegas and it was a complete joke and really stood no purpose but to protect teachers who were deemed as "bad" or not fulfilling the job qualifications.
-You are correct that admins need to have a requirement time in the classroom as many bolt the teaching aspect for the $$$ knowing that they are going to fail and have NO business doing that job. (I am taking classes for my Masters in Admin and have been in the classroom for years)
-Michelle Rhee was also in Nevada when the new super took over giving him her ideas about how to make things run right. Someone in Nevada needs to stand up and push aside the major players in this mess and do the right thing. Too many people making toooo much money running this into the ground.
-There are also no studies that tell us that public schools are better than private..I only know from personal experience and the experiences of about 10 family members. I have taught in both, my kids have attended both, and I have served on the boards of both, you CAN see a differnce, it is a big one. This argument is always opinion! Vouchers would give parents who want thier kids to learn a better opportunity to take them to a school they can do that in. That is also about the only way to get to move a child as the law lately has shown by punishing a parent to jail time because she wanted so badly for her kids to get a better education that she put her ex's address on the paperwork and got caught.
I went to both and sent kids to both. I do not believe there is a difference. There are exceptional private schools...locally Meadows comes to mind...but there are also exceptional public schools....advanced tech locally or Bronx High School of Science where my sister went.
Locally Gorman and Faith Lutheran fit into the middle of the pack of the good public high schools.
And yes of course there are terrible public schools. That is in fact the big issue. It is the bad schools not the Coronados that cause the problem. All a voucher program is going to do is make those schools worse. Siphon off the few good kids and leave the dregs. And the difficult kids will simply be rejected by the private schools which dumps them back into the public ones.
We need to fix the low end public schools. Not allow some to escape.
Quote:
-As a teacher, you and the others in a school can tell who are the "bad" teachers..just too hard to get rid of them right now
See the LA Times study. The amazing thing was that no one knew who the good or bad actually were. Everyone knew who they liked and thought to be good....but it turns out they were mostly wrong.
Quote:
-You can also find plenty of quotes and articles about how great a movie it was and how that trimming the power of the unions' will help as they have become too powerful and do not help. It pointed out many irregularties in the system and maybe one day someone will take this bull by the horns and get something done to help the kids. I was in the union in Vegas and it was a complete joke and really stood no purpose but to protect teachers who were deemed as "bad" or not fulfilling the job qualifications.
Again the issue is that no one seems able to tell good from bad...so I suppose seniority is as good a metric as any.
Quote:
-You are correct that admins need to have a requirement time in the classroom as many bolt the teaching aspect for the $$$ knowing that they are going to fail and have NO business doing that job. (I am taking classes for my Masters in Admin and have been in the classroom for years)
-Michelle Rhee was also in Nevada when the new super took over giving him her ideas about how to make things run right. Someone in Nevada needs to stand up and push aside the major players in this mess and do the right thing. Too many people making toooo much money running this into the ground.
She was doing some interesting discussion of measuring performance...though it does not sound like she was exactly a star either.
-There are also no studies that tell us that public schools are better than private.. This argument is always opinion! Vouchers would give parents who want thier kids to learn a better opportunity to take them to a school they can do that in.
There are no studies because the point cannot be proven. What has been proven is that any school that can CHOOSE its students will not choose poor performers and thereby influence their schoolwide performance.
-As a teacher, you and the others in a school can tell who are the "bad" teachers..just too hard to get rid of them right now
It has been repeatedly been shown that the "bad" teachers are a very small minority. More importantly, as Olecapt has mentioned, the only thing that HAS been proven is that the systems for judging a teacher's "effectiveness" are amazingly unreliable and flawed.
-You can also find plenty of quotes and articles about how great a movie it was and how that trimming the power of the unions' will help as they have become too powerful and do not help. It pointed out many irregularties in the system and maybe one day someone will take this bull by the horns and get something done to help the kids. I was in the union in Vegas and it was a complete joke and really stood no purpose but to protect teachers who were deemed as "bad" or not fulfilling the job qualifications.
Unions do not hire teachers, administrators do. No teacher is safe from being fired and no teacher has a job for life. Just as a teacher must document the reasons for failing a student, any administrator can document the need for firing a teacher and then do so. They just have to do the work. The movie was a joke and pandered to the uninformed public and emotions instead of making informed, educated, intelligent statements. That, however, would not have served the purpose that was intended.
-You are correct that admins need to have a requirement time in the classroom as many bolt the teaching aspect for the $$$ knowing that they are going to fail and have NO business doing that job. (I am taking classes for my Masters in Admin and have been in the classroom for years)
And yet, the trend is to allow people to become administrators with no educational experience. That is proof positive that the people who are running the show have dishonest ulterior motives.
-Michelle Rhee was also in Nevada when the new super took over giving him her ideas about how to make things run right. Someone in Nevada needs to stand up and push aside the major players in this mess and do the right thing. Too many people making toooo much money running this into the ground.
Few people have made as much money as Rhee and she was, is and will always be a circus clown looking for legitimacy. She is a true enemy of education in this country and succeeds ONLY because of widespread ignorance, pettiness, and greed. She like Gates, Broad, Klein and Black are severely UNQUALIFIED to be engaged in the discussion about education. If you want to see someone who should be leading our national discussion, investigate Ramon Cortinez from L.A. HE is an educator not a fraud.
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