[Charles Wallace]

That is an interesting story. I think there's a lot to be said about low expectations from both the parents and faculty at certain schools. I couldn't imagine not even having one gifted child over the course of even one year at a school of several hundred students. The law of averages just wouldn't allow it.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking myself. If one counts giftedness as representing the top 5% of possible I.Q., then in any given school, 5 of every 100 students should be gifted on average, correct? I'm no statistician, but it would seem reasonable to me to assume that they should have had quite a few gifted children over the years--unless low expectations and bias got in their way. I can't think of any reasonable explanation otherwise, but hey -- I'm eager to read the well-regarded, credible evidence Asik might so generously provide. *Cough* ;-P

That is, of course, unless I was privvy to certain genetic evidence that would educate me on the mutual exclusivity of high intelligence and the Aryan race. LOL

Come on -- anyone can tell blondes are natural geniuses! Just look at Britney Spears!

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by Charles Wallace

Just curious --

First of all, would you mind citing your data, please? A link that we can all click on would be very helpful in substantiating your argument, specifically about "the Summerlin schools all rank in the top 10% academically."

Here you go...

Clark County School Rankings and Performance

This coming year I am going to add zip codes. Also some sort of a change from last year item.

In the spirit of free exchange of data, here is a list of the most recent NCLB rankings for exemplary and high-performing schools. With the exception of Rogich, which wasn't on this list last year, would you mind telling me which ones on this list are Summerlin schools? Link (http://ccsd.net/news/pdfs/7272007-1185560215.pdf - broken link)

The Summerlin schools are Givens, Stanton, Bonner and Goolsby. Mostly Summerlin schools are Ober and Bryant. The only mostly Summerlin middle school is Rogich. Becker and Fertitta are partials.

Next, here is a link demonstrating that Palo Verde High School (the Summerlin high school) failed to make adequate yearly progress -- again. Link (http://ccsd.net/schools/acc_pdfs_2006/246.pdf - broken link) Their graduation rate is an underwhelming 67.6%. 38.2% of the ones who did graduate needed to take remedial classes when they entered college.

There is no Summerlin High School. Palos Verdes serves much of Summerlin as well as other areas including a substantial bussed in populations. I would think all of the conventional high schools are non-local with the possible exception of Coronada and the outlying High Schools. All of the better conventional high schools have similar remedial numbers. They are all twice that of ATech.

Moreover, by "college," do you mean UNLV?

Cheap shot. We will leave that to the UNLV grads.

Thirdly, if you would like me to explain the several ways in which data, including (but not restricted to) grades, attendance, and admissions can be manipulated, please feel free to let me know

Sure...and we await your explaination of why it only occurs in Summerlin schools. The inner city principals are too slow to understand how it is done?

[Charles Wallace]

Originally Posted by olecapt

Here you go...

Clark County School Rankings and Performance

This coming year I am going to add zip codes. Also some sort of a change from last year item.

Dude, this is a real estate site! Um, sorry -- but anyone trying to sell me a house in a particular neighborhood has a vested interest in making that neighborhood seem to be the most fantastic place on earth. How about a credible source?

The Summerlin schools are Givens, Stanton, Bonner and Goolsby. Mostly Summerlin schools are Ober and Bryant. The only mostly Summerlin middle school is Rogich. Becker and Fertitta are partials.

Bonner is not on that list.

There is no Summerlin High School. Palos Verdes

Really? Palo Verde -- the actual name of the school -- is right smack in the -144 zip code. I'm sure they would be quite surprised to find they are not in Summerlin. Please reread my post. There is a difference between saying something is "the Summerlin high school" (uncapitalized) versus "Summerlin High School."

serves much of Summerlin as well as other areas including a substantial bussed in populations.

Your information is outdated. A link to the most recent map of PVHS's zone is here (http://ccsd.net/schools/pdf/zoningMaps/hsNorth.pdf - broken link). For many years, the "bussed kids" (for some, a very thinly disguised euphemism) were held responsible for the low scores. Apparently they were not solely to be blamed.

I would think all of the conventional high schools are non-local with the possible exception of Coronada and the outlying High Schools. All of the better conventional high schools have similar remedial numbers. They are all twice that of ATech.

What do you mean by "non-local"? How much more local than "the surrounding zip code or codes" can you get?

Moreover, for what it's worth, A-Tech is in the middle of Vegas Drive off Rancho -- hardly a Summerlinesque neighborhood, wouldn't you agree? Not sure exactly how A-Tech helps you advance your point here except to say that the genuinely outstanding schools in Clark County (especially high schools) don't apparently make their home in the Summerlin area.

Sure...and we await your explaination of why it only occurs in Summerlin schools. The inner city principals are too slow to understand how it is done?

I did not make that claim. Please feel free to reread, though.

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by Charles Wallace

Dude, this is a real estate site! Um, sorry -- but anyone trying to sell me a house in a particular neighborhood has a vested interest in making that neighborhood seem to be the most fantastic place on earth. How about a credible source?


Bonner is not on that list.

Find a better one Charlie. Actually it is the only source and its data is a direct draw from CCSD. You know who CCSD is Charlie? But find a better source and we will be glad to make this one go away. In the mean time try pointing out the bad data rather that being a jerk about the very well qualified analyst who created the chart. Small minds Charlie make those kind of arguments.

Really? Palo Verde -- the actual name of the school -- is right smack in the -144 zip code. I'm sure they would be quite surprised to find they are not in Summerlin. Please reread my post. There is a difference between saying something is "the Summerlin high school" (uncapitalized) versus "Summerlin High School."

Your information is outdated. A link to the most recent map of PVHS's zone is here (http://ccsd.net/schools/pdf/zoningMaps/hsNorth.pdf - broken link). For many years, the "bussed kids" (for some, a very thinly disguised euphemism) were held responsible for the low scores. Apparently they were not solely to be blamed.

A portion of the PV zone is not in Summerlin. Sorry about that.

I understood that there was bussing from areas other than the surround. Perhaps I was mis-informed. You have a source that there are no children bussed into PV?

What do you mean by "non-local"? How much more local than "the surrounding zip code or codes" can you get?

Simple...are all the children attending coming from Contiguous and close areas? Again...got a source for that?

Moreover, for what it's worth, A-Tech is in the middle of Vegas Drive off Rancho -- hardly a Summerlinesque neighborhood, wouldn't you agree? Not sure exactly how A-Tech helps you advance your point here except to say that the genuinely outstanding schools in Clark County (especially high schools) don't apparently make their home in the Summerlin area.

My point I think. The "standard" high schools are quite uniform and mostly adequate. The good high schools are neither in Summerlin nor in Henderson. I think you agree though you apparently are unable to structure the thought.

I did not make that claim. Please feel free to reread, though.

Sure you did. You did not make it explicitly but implied it. Give me another explaination.

[Charles Wallace]

Originally Posted by olecapt

Find a better one Charlie. Actually it is the only source and its data is a direct draw from CCSD. You know who CCSD is Charlie? But find a better source and we will be glad to make this one go away.

I did! My better source was CCSD itself, not a real estate site with a vested interest in selling property.

I understood that there was bussing from areas other than the surround. Perhaps I was mis-informed. You have a source that there are no children bussed into PV?

Did you miss the link to the zoning map?

Simple...are all the children attending coming from Contiguous and close areas? Again...got a source for that?

Really, did you see the zoning map link? It's above in my previous post.

My point I think.

Actually, to quote from your previous post, your point was that "The Summerlin schools all rank in the top 10% academically." This is a claim of dubious validity, especially when you consider Palo Verde. If you mean that they are all exemplary or high-achieving, that claim is manifestly untrue, as I demonstrated before.

Next, when it becomes manifestly obvious that the best public high schools in Vegas are by no means in Summerlin, but are actually in some rather dicey neighborhoods and attract people from all over the Valley, not just the Summerlin crowd, you attempt to claim that this was what "[your] point" was. Feel free to reread your own posts if you need to review what you said before.

Hope to speak to you soon.

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by Charles Wallace

I did! My better source was CCSD itself, not a real estate site with a vested interest in selling property.

Did you miss the link to the zoning map?

Sorry Charlie that is the CCSD data you argue with. I know it is hard for you to admit you are wrong Charley. Many teachers have that problem. But you are wrong Charley.

The CCSD data is still the CCSD data and neither you nor I have a magic wand to change it to something else.

So the challenge remains Charlie...find a better presentation.

Really, did you see the zoning map link? It's above in my previous post.

I use those maps in other places Charlie. I would tell you where but you would claim that those maps were invalidate if moved from the CCSD site. But we both know a map is a map don't we?

Actually, to quote from your previous post, your point was that "The Summerlin schools all rank in the top 10% academically." This is a claim of dubious validity, especially when you consider Palo Verde. If you mean that they are all exemplary or high-achieving, that claim is manifestly untrue, as I demonstrated before.

Ahh you mislead so hard Charley. I simply pointed out to you which schools are in Summerlin. You apparently don't like the answer. There are a very limited number of schools which are fully in Summerllin. Many share other neighborhoods. Remember this is a comparison of Summerlin and Green Valley. Are you of the impression that there is a high school in Green Valley?

Next, when it becomes manifestly obvious that the best public high schools in Vegas are by no means in Summerlin, but are actually in some rather dicey neighborhoods and attract people from all over the Valley, not just the Summerlin crowd, you attempt to claim that this was what "[your] point" was. Feel free to reread your own posts if you need to review what you said before.

Hope to speak to you soon.

Actually Charlie my thesis deals with schools...not high schools which are not specific to the areas in contention.

My thesis is that there are no area specific high schools. You continue to argue that is not true because you don't wish it to be. Bad argument Charlie. I wish it were so simple to settle these points. But arguing that one does not like a position has little impact on its truth.

Actually though we agree that the standard public high schools are not very good. So being in the top 10% would not be mich of a victory would it?

[Charles Wallace]

Originally Posted by olecapt

Sorry Charlie that is the CCSD data you argue with. I know it is hard for you to admit you are wrong Charley. Many teachers have that problem. But you are wrong Charley.

The CCSD data is still the CCSD data and neither you nor I have a magic wand to change it to something else.

So the challenge remains Charlie...find a better presentation.

Olecapt, by this point, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Maybe it's because it's kind've late for me, maybe other reasons. All along, I've been quoting CCSD data, referring to CCSD data, linking to CCSD data, and so on. In fact, I'm suggesting that going to the source OF the data you use in your website is a way of getting somewhat objective data. Therefore, claiming that I'm arguing with the CCSD data leaves me .

Ahh you mislead so hard Charley. I simply pointed out to you which schools are in Summerlin. You apparently don't like the answer. There are a very limited number of schools which are fully in Summerllin. Many share other neighborhoods. Remember this is a comparison of Summerlin and Green Valley. Are you of the impression that there is a high school in Green Valley?

I've heard it's pretty good, but my knowledge of that high school is limited. Got me there!

Actually Charlie my thesis deals with schools...not high schools which are not specific to the areas in contention.

My thesis is that there are no area specific high schools. You continue to argue that is not true because you don't wish it to be. Bad argument Charlie. I wish it were so simple to settle these points. But arguing that one does not like a position has little impact on its truth.

Okay, unless I am very much misunderstanding you, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you're contending that there are NO high schools which draw its students from a specific zip code or codes? If you're arguing that (for example) PVHS draws its students from an area including (and beyond the borders of) Summerlin, I agree -- but I'm sure you know even better than I that areas immediately peripheral to Summerlin are pretty comparable to Summerlin itself, obviously.

Actually though we agree that the standard public high schools are not very good. So being in the top 10% would not be mich of a victory would it?

ABSOLUTELY. Ironically enough (or not!) I had the same thought earlier this evening. You know, I really like ending on a note of mutual accord and agreement. Can we wave the white flag and end on this note, maybe? I say this with all sincerity, Olecapt: I could not agree with you more.

[jfkIII]

I blame it all on the ADD, ADHD or autism...whatever irresponsible parents are calling their bad parenting skills these days. Behind each of these so-called "illnesses" I find that there's a bad parenting situation, absentee parent(s), and/or an environment not condusive to raising a child properly.

The problem is, they then pump their kids up with these anti-badparenting meds and send them off to school with the "relief" that it's the school's problem to handle and not theirs. Of course, the whole classroom then suffers, and good teachers (and students) get the short end!

[ou812girl]

Autism is a very real developmental disorder that can occur in even the best families. Bad parenting is most certainly NOT the cause of Autism nor are the results of bad parenting misdiagnosed as Autism.

[jfkIII]

Sorry...I wasn't referring to the case of true-autism (the plate-spinning, non-responsive type) that has existed in medical society forever. I was talking about this new "mild-form" autism, which used to be called ADD.