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After reading through all these posts...the education system is more effed up than I ever thought!
It's not really the system that is effed up. It's the riff raff standing on the outside, looking in, expressing their uninformed opinions.
The fallacy in their logic and their "data" is that the "achievement" is measured by unreliable measures that can be easily manipulated. "Correcting" statistically is only theoretical in nature and when applied to human behavior is extremely unreliable.
Most of the propaganda that is being put out by the right wing against schools, teachers, unions, and collective bargaining is plausible only because the majority of those that believe it have no knowledge of advanced statistical analysis. That is knowledge you get by having an advanced degree.
The fact is that standardized tests measure a very narrow portion of student achievement. They completely ignore the psychological and emotional factors in human development and are severely limited in measuring cognitive development.
The purely subjective analysis of what makes a better teacher or better student is different for many people and cannot be easily measured despite the efforts of the anti education crowd to do so.
To say that schools are "failing" would indicate that there are not enough graduates available to fill the necessary positions. That flies in the face of 10% unemployment. A more accurate statement would be that the training offered by schools is not aligned with the demands of the market. While everyone wants their child to be a lawyer or doctor, that is not realistic. Some fools expect teachers to make every subject in every grade "entertaining" so students will be motivated. How about facing reality and admitting that every child will not be graduating college summa *** laude.
Make the curriculum choices more relevant and the courses, schools, and teachers will be more effective. Bring back vocational education, update it for the modern world, and things will look a lot better.
(Note: Did they really edit out the c u m from summa c u m laude??????)
Last edited by quixotic59; 04-17-2011 at 08:46 PM..
Looks like South Korea is doing something right, and America is falling on its fat face. If Vietnam and some of the other countries in the region reform, they're going to fly past us too. If America wants to stay on top, it should be supporting walled-off Communist regimes, not opposing them ;0
Having lived and taught in South Korea for many years, it isn't that punishment teaches their kids. (I was there off and on from 1996 to 2008).
It's the culture. Koreans and Vietnamese and Chinese and Japanese and such are nothing short of absolutely obsessed about education. The parents are willing to pay whatever it costs to get them as educated as possible. Students attend schools well until 9pm at night. After their regular schooling ending at 3pm or whatever, they attend many private institutions well into the night. They are also cheap too, so quite accessable to any parent to pay for.
Punishment has nothing to do with their high educational ranks. It has much more to do with the culture, the value systems, their priorities as a culture, etc.
When I grew up in the U.S., High School was dumbed down to low low levels that that the dumbest of the dumb could graduate. I dont recall having any homework, and having an emormous amount of idle time to just hangout with friends after school or do whatever. I can't even imagine attending an additional 5-6 hours of school after school each day either.
Our culture (American culture) values teenage rebellion. Over in Asia, that's just not part of the culture. Confucianism dictates the exact opposite - you respect teachers, parents, elders, etc. Just completely different thinking between the cultures of what education is suppose to be about for a teenager, and how the society operates.
No amount of capital punishment in the U.S. can change that culture. Most likely, in the U.S., you'd just see kids or their parents reacting back with violence, more than anything. I certainly don't see them studying more because of it.
"A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it's like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I've done it. Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:
• attend a sleepover
• have a playdate
• be in a school play
• complain about not being in a school play
• watch TV or play computer games
• choose their own extracurricular activities
• get any grade less than an A
• not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama
• play any instrument other than the piano or violin
• not play the piano or violin.
I'm using the term "Chinese mother" loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too...
...All the same, even when Western parents think they're being strict, they usually don't come close to being Chinese mothers. For example, my Western friends who consider themselves strict make their children practice their instruments 30 minutes every day. An hour at most. For a Chinese mother, the first hour is the easy part. It's hours two and three that get tough..."
Amy Chua with her daughters, Louisa and Sophia, at their home in New Haven, Conn.
"A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it's like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I've done it. Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:
• attend a sleepover
• have a playdate
• be in a school play
• complain about not being in a school play
• watch TV or play computer games
• choose their own extracurricular activities
• get any grade less than an A
• not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama
• play any instrument other than the piano or violin
• not play the piano or violin.
I'm using the term "Chinese mother" loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too...
...All the same, even when Western parents think they're being strict, they usually don't come close to being Chinese mothers. For example, my Western friends who consider themselves strict make their children practice their instruments 30 minutes every day. An hour at most. For a Chinese mother, the first hour is the easy part. It's hours two and three that get tough..."
Amy Chua with her daughters, Louisa and Sophia, at their home in New Haven, Conn.
Pass the grain of salt.
One of my favorite people is a guy who was my material guru for some years.
He is an American born of Chinese parents as his wife. His Phd is in semiconductors and his wife's is in statistics. They both spent excellent careers in the US private sector. She did however work for government contractors.
They had three children. All have Bachelor degrees but the two girls are heavy duty Physicians while the boy is an operator. Charming. Warm, friendly and well suited to selling things.
In the end game who will be more successful? Even after twenty years it is hard ot tell. The boy bounces around from brilliant successes to abject failure. The girls climb the ladder.
So the chinese model works sometimes. But sometimes it has to deal with the maverick.
My friends did it well. They don't approve of the son's direction. But they love him anyway.
Having lived and taught in South Korea for many years, it isn't that punishment teaches their kids. (I was there off and on from 1996 to 2008).
It's the culture. Koreans and Vietnamese and Chinese and Japanese and such are nothing short of absolutely obsessed about education. The parents are willing to pay whatever it costs to get them as educated as possible. Students attend schools well until 9pm at night. After their regular schooling ending at 3pm or whatever, they attend many private institutions well into the night. They are also cheap too, so quite accessable to any parent to pay for.
Punishment has nothing to do with their high educational ranks. It has much more to do with the culture, the value systems, their priorities as a culture, etc.
When I grew up in the U.S., High School was dumbed down to low low levels that that the dumbest of the dumb could graduate. I dont recall having any homework, and having an emormous amount of idle time to just hangout with friends after school or do whatever. I can't even imagine attending an additional 5-6 hours of school after school each day either.
Our culture (American culture) values teenage rebellion. Over in Asia, that's just not part of the culture. Confucianism dictates the exact opposite - you respect teachers, parents, elders, etc. Just completely different thinking between the cultures of what education is suppose to be about for a teenager, and how the society operates.
No amount of capital punishment in the U.S. can change that culture. Most likely, in the U.S., you'd just see kids or their parents reacting back with violence, more than anything. I certainly don't see them studying more because of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty
I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet. It is good reading:
"A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it's like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I've done it. Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:
• attend a sleepover
• have a playdate
• be in a school play
• complain about not being in a school play
• watch TV or play computer games
• choose their own extracurricular activities
• get any grade less than an A
• not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama
• play any instrument other than the piano or violin
• not play the piano or violin.
I'm using the term "Chinese mother" loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too...
...All the same, even when Western parents think they're being strict, they usually don't come close to being Chinese mothers. For example, my Western friends who consider themselves strict make their children practice their instruments 30 minutes every day. An hour at most. For a Chinese mother, the first hour is the easy part. It's hours two and three that get tough..."
Amy Chua with her daughters, Louisa and Sophia, at their home in New Haven, Conn.
You are both getting at the basic issue in the American education system today that NO ONE wants to speak about: CULTURAL BELIEFS.
Both Tiger Beer's and Sporty and Misty's anecdotes involve the idea of creating a culture of respect, motivation, and delayed gratification. Work hard in your youth so you can enjoy the greater rewards later on. What many American parents want is for their children to NOT have to work hard, fully enjoy their extended childhood, yet somehow excel academically and have a successful career. They expect schools and teachers to make this happen magically. When the politicians reinforce this unrealistic scenario, much of the public falls right in with them.
The truth is that students make a school what it is. Not every teacher in all these other countries is a wizard at teaching. The students make the most of the opportunities given to them.
Not every teacher in all these other countries is a wizard at teaching.
So true!
Living in Asia for many, many, many years...teachers in Asia aren't any worse or better than their American counterparts.
Education is really all about how much a student wants to get out of the education. Brilliant teachers can't make a student who doesn't want to learn, suddenly learn something.
I've taught so many of the same things, only to see certain classrooms just excel and absolutely love everything I say and do. Other classrooms everything I say or do falls on dead ears. But, it's the same lectures, same things being said. It's all about student motivation to learn in those classrooms that make a difference.
Pass the grain of salt. ... So the chinese model works sometimes...
Yeah. The author of the article has an agenda - she wants to sell her newly published book Battle Hymn Of The Tiger Mom so the article's main purpose is to generate controversy that translates into publicity.
Do a google search on the phrase "Tiger Mom" and you will see she accomplished her objective.
Even though I'm retired, I still get called upon to do some consulting (patents) by a mentor -- He's Chinese & on the faculty at MIT (EE) and a co founder of a RISC processor company you would know & a principal in a patent consulting company; his wife is Chinese & on the faculty at Harvard (EE) and runs R&D in China for a household name technology company. My point is their daughter is from the deep end of the gene pool. He and his wife do not push their daughter at all academically. She's in high school now & is doing fine & seems to be a great kid.
My daughter, now in an Ivy League university, went to a private school in Silicon Valley. In her graduating class, 15% of her peer students were admitted to MIT, with most kids going to the Ivys, Stanford, Cal, Chicago, Northwestern, Cal-Tech and other name-brand schools. The families had "HYP Syndrome" -- it was almost a disgrace to their ancestors if the Asian kids were not accepted to Harvard, Yale or Princeton. The school counselors spent a lot of time educating the parents that their kid would not be a failure if they merely went to UCLA, Harvey Mudd or NYU.
But private schools like that cost money. Look at this:
Then you need to add textbooks, uniforms, other required things adds another 10% to 15% depending on the year. $25K for Kindergarten is a lot of money. $42K/year all-in for high school is tough to swallow - but few families leave because of quality concerns.
Even with that kind of revenue coming in, the actual classroom teachers and the various administrators earn less than their public school peers. Apparently, some teachers would rather take a pay cut to work in a private school where they don't have to deal with the types of negative issues that public schools teachers must deal with.
Last edited by SportyandMisty; 04-18-2011 at 12:52 AM..
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