[mojavedxer]

Originally Posted by BBMW

It's probably not worth the aggravation and possible rancor in this kitchen.

There is ways to correct this without worrying about repercussions from management at work. Just inquiring with employee services on stopping the monthly payroll deduction for union dues would be the first step. Then completing the leave of membership form with the union would be the second and last step. Its Scoops money and he should be able to decide who gets it or who doesn't.

[BBMW]

I not only think management wouldn't care, if they had an opinion about it, they'd probably prefer him to be out of the union. It would be the union and the members in the kitchen he'd likely have to worry about. They're the ones who'd want him toeing the union line.

[mojavedxer]

The unions here are pretty benign in nature. Its not the same type of union environment you encounter back east or in the Midwest where membership is mandatory state wide or semi mandatory to work in a union shop.

[ScoopLV]

Originally Posted by MrWillys

Note that it had been bought and sold several times prior to the first bankruptcy in 2004. After emerging from the first in 2009 (one of the longest reorganizations in history) the company executives took multi million dollar bonus after the workers had agreed to wage and benefit concessions. Imagine going to work Monday and being told you're taking a 15% cut in pay, and now have to pay a portion of your health benefit, and then the executives take big bonus'.

After skimming millions they hired a new CEO who stopped paying the employee pension benefits in 2011. The strike was voted for when 92% of the employees turned down the contract offer. While in Bankruptcy again in 2012 the Hostess executives asked, and received multi million dollar bonus'.

And not one of the string of companies that owned Hostess had any experience at all in large-scale baking. All of them were capital companies, interested in pulling meat off the bones. When nothing was left, they sold the brands and walked away.

[MrWillys]

Originally Posted by ScoopLV

And not one of the string of companies that owned Hostess had any experience at all in large-scale baking. All of them were capital companies, interested in pulling meat off the bones. When nothing was left, they sold the brands and walked away.

Agreed! It's like all the union bashing going on right now over Detroit. It's population is almost half of what it once was. Would the automotive industry have not outsourced these jobs had the unions made concessions and lowered wages? Can Americans work for pennies an hour like the Chinese do? No way can the American worker compete with these low wage workers. I had a friend that grew up in Mexico tell me that a plant in his hometown was closed to move to China. Even Mexico can't compete with the Chinese / Indian, and so on cheap labor.

I remember in the 80's building clean rooms for silicon chip manufacturing in the San Jose area. I worked at Seagate, Sony, Novelous, Intel, and many others where computers where made here in America. 99 to 2000ish I built a space for a networking company that was 12 hr days 7 days a week, and within 6 months it was gone. Was this the workers that lost their jobs fault? This is the argument anti union uses folks.

Okay, current times we're slowly moving along, and the American worker is hungry. Should we as American citizens expect something from our government, and or the American Corporations that profit here in this country? Do people really want the FREE STUFF you constantly here about? My guess is most just want a job, so they can make a living. Maybe be able to afford a house, a car, and take the kids to Disneyland at least once. Don't know how we solve this, but a further reduction in the working class is not the answer, and Unions are not the cause, but rather the reaction of the poisonous pill the American worker has been forced to swallow.

[ddrhazy]

Outsourcing jobs is also more harmful to the environment. It's ridiculous to build products in another country and ship them half way across the world to their final destination. Some materials and products are region specific but most are not.

[ScoopLV]

Originally Posted by MrWillys

Okay, current times we're slowly moving along, and the American worker is hungry. Should we as American citizens expect something from our government, and or the American Corporations that profit here in this country?

The last time America really worked economically was from the Eisenhower years through the Nixon years. Grab Eisenhower's economic playbook, and reinstate it. We know this is a working system, because it worked before. After WWII we were deep in debt, and needed to right the ship. Same as now, basically.

[MrWillys]

Originally Posted by ScoopLV

The last time America really worked economically was from the Eisenhower years through the Nixon years. Grab Eisenhower's economic playbook, and reinstate it. We know this is a working system, because it worked before. After WWII we were deep in debt, and needed to right the ship. Same as now, basically.

WWII was paid for by all with an increase in tax rates. During the mid 1940's the highest rate was as high as 91%. Since Reagan it has never been above 40%. See here, and scroll down to tax history:
Income tax in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Greed has taken over from civic pride, and I doubt agreement to actually pay for the recent wars will ever come. I heard we'll be broke on Tuesday thanks to political gridlock.

Also, the corporate income tax collected as a percentage of what the IRS collects is at all time lows from its peak of about 30% in 1970. The working class still pays the lions share.

[brucerby]

[quote=MrWillys;31593117]You might really want to educate yourself on the subject matter before making outlandish claims that the union drove Hostess into bankruptcy.
Old HB - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My education is fine, but you may need some tutoring about economics and unions.

In Detroit, as long as car manufacturers could keep raising prices on poorly made cars,
and consumers had no choice, the system you like, ran fine. Then when foreign made cars hit
our shores, Detroit's high-priced workers finally had to earn their pay- which they failed to do.

..ultimately, unions priced themselves out of the market. High school dropouts making $65,000+
a year in today's dollars, having the most minimal skills, was never a model destined to last.

I knew guys who worked in the Reynolds Aluminum plant in Chicago and guys at Ford Motor on the
south side. Lucky to get out of high school, if they even graduated, were in the bottom of the bottom of their class.

Yet, they used to brag how easy it was to scam these big companies and loaf at least half the day...
all because the union protected them. New workers were warned early on NOT to work too hard,
as it will make the others look bad. Most when asked, said they "worked for the union", not
their respective companies. And the union leadership was the most corrupt, even the
membership knew it, but liked their union 'spoils' too much to complain out loud.

But I'm sure you'll just dismiss all that as atypical, just anti-union rhetoric.
This same pattern was repeated in industry after industry where unions were powerful.
Anytime you have a swing too far in one direction, you get a backlash and that's what happened
to unions in America.

You have a 'fairy-tale-like' belief that if only unions were allowed to run this country unchecked,
things would be just fine. You probably can't even imagine how many fewer businesses are
started, since dealing with unions would be such a negative.

As to investors who buy and sell companies, you must think they are charities or something.

Businesses available at fire sale prices are in terrible shape to begin with. The present management sees the handwriting on the wall, or they wouldn't even entertain offers. New technology, or foreign competition may be about to decimate the business.

WHOEVER takes on the company and it's debt and problems is gambling they may be able to salvage at least some part of the business...or IT WOULD HAVE GONE UNDER ANYWAY. But as soon as someone risks their own capital, unions can now blame them for not subsidizing a losing venture from now till the end
of time. The simplistic message is always the same: UNIONS=GOOD. BIG BUSINESS=BAD.

I will agree with only one comment you've made. The middle class is threatened in this country,
but unions are not the answer...not even close.

[MrWillys]

Originally Posted by brucerby

I knew guys who worked in the Reynolds Aluminum plant in Chicago and guys at Ford Motor on the
south side. Lucky to get out of high school, if they even graduated, were in the bottom of the bottom of their class.

Yet, they used to brag how easy it was to scam these big companies and loaf at least half the day...
all because the union protected them. New workers were warned early on NOT to work too hard,
as it will make the others look bad. Most when asked, said they "worked for the union", not
their respective companies. And the union leadership was the most corrupt, even the
membership knew it, but liked their union 'spoils' too much to complain out loud.

But I'm sure you'll just dismiss all that as atypical, just anti-union rhetoric.
This same pattern was repeated in industry after industry where unions were powerful.
Anytime you have a swing too far in one direction, you get a backlash and that's what happened
to unions in America.

Sorry, but as Judge Judy "I can't accept hearsay as evidence".

Anti union rhetoric? You still have shown zero evidence of why unions have caused these problems. Non union companies in America close their door too. What is the cause? Give me a solid example of something that's not hearsay, or vague and ambiguous innuendo.

Also, high school dropouts? You mean like Congressman Darryl Issa from California? Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, even the kid from Facebook dropped out. Not a very valid argument now is it!
Famous High School Dropouts