[tadtam]

Originally Posted by winter-rabbit

What did Michelin replace your tires with?

Michelin LTX M/S P245/65 R17 105T

[winter-rabbit]

How they holding up to the hot asphalt, my Irish friend.

Originally Posted by tadtam

Michelin LTX M/S P245/65 R17 105T

[tadtam]

Originally Posted by winter-rabbit

How they holding up to the hot asphalt, my Irish friend.

No problems.. Been here full time since June 2013. Noticed they do not leave a lot of black marks in driveway.
I go up to Mt. Charleston in winter, so i need some type of snow tires.

[MediocreButArrogant]

Originally Posted by Everdeen

My husband is a huge racing fan and we have had several conversations about high-performance racing. My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that racing vehicles have the soft, sticky tires but are not summer tires. They are that way for racing. My tires, which are suitable for driving on ice (and they really do work) are softer and stickier which makes them suitable winter tires. And that makes sense to me.

Am I not understanding this correctly?

Well, I suppose you could make a summer tire that wasn't made from a soft, sticky compound, but there's not really any reason to do it. A summer tire by definition just has more rubber and less void in the tread pattern, and the only reason to build a tire like that is for more grip in the dry. So every summer tire also turns out to be a high performance tire with shorter treadlife and a soft, sticky compound. If you don't care about performance, there's no reason to put a summer tread pattern on the tire, and thereby limit its application.

An "all-season" is the same as an "M&S rated tire", and I'm pretty sure the only requirement is certain percentage of void vs rubber in the tread pattern. That's it. There's no testing on how well the tread pattern performs in the wet or on snow. I believe the "snowflake" winter tire certification does require actual testing.

Actually, after I wrote it, I started wondering about the grip of a summer tire in cold temperatures, given that it is softer and has more grip than a harder compound in non-winter conditions. One big difference between a true winter tire, and an all-season tire is that the all-season tire usually has lousy grip when it gets cold, but the winter tire compound maintains its traction in cold temperatures. Because the summer tire started out softer and stickier than the all-season tire, even though its grip is degraded, it's possible it might have still have better grip than the all-season tire in cold temperatures. But it's a moot point, because the tread pattern is totally unsuitable for driving on snow and ice, and the mfgrs warn against it, so it would be really stupid to try driving on summer tires in true winter conditions.

[BBMW]

There is something called an R Compound tire. These are essentially racing tires that have some tread pattern in them to make them street legal. These are really soft and sticky, and won't last very long. The main reason for their existence is to allow people who own street legal racing cars to drive those cars to the track. These are NOT your normal high performance summer street tire.

Originally Posted by Everdeen

My husband is a huge racing fan and we have had several conversations about high-performance racing. My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that racing vehicles have the soft, sticky tires but are not summer tires. They are that way for racing. My tires, which are suitable for driving on ice (and they really do work) are softer and stickier which makes them suitable winter tires. And that makes sense to me.

Am I not understanding this correctly?

[BBMW]

It's not void to rubber ratio. That's for rain performance. Summer tires can do very well in wet conditions, if they have the right tread.

Snow and all season tires have what are called sipes. These are little cuts in the tread, they sort of act like little squeegees, for lack of a better analogy, and allow the tire to get a better grip on snow.

Originally Posted by MediocreButArrogant

Well, I suppose you could make a summer tire that wasn't made from a soft, sticky compound, but there's not really any reason to do it. A summer tire by definition just has more rubber and less void in the tread pattern, and the only reason to build a tire like that is for more grip in the dry. So every summer tire also turns out to be a high performance tire with shorter treadlife and a soft, sticky compound. If you don't care about performance, there's no reason to put a summer tread pattern on the tire, and thereby limit its application.

An "all-season" is the same as an "M&S rated tire", and I'm pretty sure the only requirement is certain percentage of void vs rubber in the tread pattern. That's it. There's no testing on how well the tread pattern performs in the wet or on snow. I believe the "snowflake" winter tire certification does require actual testing.

Actually, after I wrote it, I started wondering about the grip of a summer tire in cold temperatures, given that it is softer and has more grip than a harder compound in non-winter conditions. One big difference between a true winter tire, and an all-season tire is that the all-season tire usually has lousy grip when it gets cold, but the winter tire compound maintains its traction in cold temperatures. Because the summer tire started out softer and stickier than the all-season tire, even though its grip is degraded, it's possible it might have still have better grip than the all-season tire in cold temperatures. But it's a moot point, because the tread pattern is totally unsuitable for driving on snow and ice, and the mfgrs warn against it, so it would be really stupid to try driving on summer tires in true winter conditions.

[MediocreButArrogant]

Originally Posted by BBMW

It's not void to rubber ratio. That's for rain performance.

There is a specific definition of what makes an all-season tire an all-season tire, and void to rubber ratio is (half) of it. This is not my definition, it's from the Rubber Manufacturers Association:

1. New tire treads shall have multiple pockets or slots in at least one tread edge that meet the following dimensional requirements based on mold dimensions:

• Extend toward the tread center at least 1/2 inch from the footprint edge, measured perpendicularly to the tread centerline.
• A minimum cross-sectional width of 1/16 inch.
• Edges of pockets or slots at angles between 35 and 90 degrees from the direction of travel.

2. The new tire tread contact surface void area will be a minimum of 25 percent based on mold dimensions.

That definition is not very useful for drivers that need to drive in true winter conditions, as a tire can meet that definition and completely suck in the snow.

Summer tires can do very well in wet conditions, if they have the right tread.

If it does well in wet conditions, it's probably not a summer (only) tire. A tread pattern that works well in the rain is almost certainly going to qualify the tire as an M+S tire, which by definition makes it an all-season tire and not a summer tire.

[skugelstadt]

Originally Posted by winter-rabbit

So I moved from Boston. My all-season tires are cracking fast. These are the highly rated 90K Michelin Defenders that I have 20K miles on. They are also causing a lot of tire marks on the driveway.

Is it a good idea to stick with summer tires here year round? The summer tires have better durability on extra hot asphalt.

Check the manufacture date of your tires. If I remember correctly they "expire" at 6 years. You may have bought them new but they could have sat around for awhile.

[winter-rabbit]

I thought summer tires all this time has something to do with better heat resistance.

[EA]

I've fearlessly driven in hurricanes (plural), a tornado, hundreds of rain storms, ice storms, and even a few blizzards. The first time it rained here I was driving a cab. I was scared for my life watching these people drive in it.


During one blizzard, I tried to drive my 300zx, with double the factory power, on performance tires. That was fun. 3 mph all 7 miles home.


I too recommend reading the reviews thoroughly. Tread ware and rain performance.

I don't know what kind of car you drive, or how new it is, but a lot of newer cars come with terrible tires (and brakes). They use sticky tires (and brakes) to improve stats for sales purposes, but they wear out very soon. At 10k miles I had already had to replace the tires and brakes on my 2012 focus.