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Old 05-06-2020, 02:51 PM
 
10,581 posts, read 5,565,177 times
Reputation: 18846

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Purlin View Post
Zero chance I go to Vegas if required to wear a mask.

NO.FREAKING.WAY.
Fair enough. I'm sure many people agree with you.

Others will say "Zero chance I would go to Vegas if they DO NOT require everyone to wear a mask."
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Old 05-06-2020, 03:19 PM
 
10,581 posts, read 5,565,177 times
Reputation: 18846
Quote:
Originally Posted by equid0x View Post
Well, that's an interesting viewpoint.
I'm glad I piqued your interest!

Quote:
Originally Posted by equid0x View Post
I don't really agree that there was no risk breathing the air in front of you at the store prior to the pandemic. People have been walking around in public places while sick pretty much forever. There have been asymptomatic carriers of viruses forever.
That's a fair point. In the extreme, we had Typhoid Mary (Mary Mallon). I never really bothered to read her story until the current pandemic hit. For others reading this post who haven't done so, you might find the Wikipedia article on her to be fascinating. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon:

Quote:
From 1900 to 1907, Mary Mallon worked as a cook in the New York City area for seven families. In 1900, she worked in Mamaroneck, New York, where, within two weeks of her employment, residents developed typhoid fever. In 1901, she moved to Manhattan, where members of the family for whom she worked developed fevers and diarrhea, and the laundress died. Mallon then went to work for a lawyer and left after seven of the eight people in that household became ill.[8]

In August 1906, Mallon took a position in Oyster Bay on Long Island, and within two weeks, 10 of the 11 family members were hospitalized with typhoid. She changed jobs again, and similar occurrences happened in three more households. She worked as a cook for the family of a wealthy New York banker, Charles Henry Warren. When the Warrens rented a house in Oyster Bay for the summer of 1906, Mallon went along too. From August 27 to September 3, six of the 11 people in the family came down with typhoid fever. The disease at that time was "unusual" in Oyster Bay, according to three medical doctors who practiced there. Mallon then was hired by other families, and outbreaks followed her.
Supposedly, through all of that, Typhoid Mary remained outwardly fine and the picture of health.


Quote:
Originally Posted by equid0x View Post
The data we have just doesn't show this thing to be high enough a risk to warrant compulsory mask wearing.
That begs the question, what would the data look like to warrant compulsory mask wearing (assuming we somehow grant the power to the government to force such a thing)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by equid0x View Post
Not do I feel that it is the place of a private establishment or the government to make medical decisions on my behalf.
Interesting. My view is a private establishment can impose a dress code. At its most basic, it might be "no shirt, no shoes, no service." I've eaten at restaurants where a man is required to wear a suit & tie. It is their business, and they get to establish a dress code.

You raise an interesting question regarding government - specifically access to government. I thought you might say something along the lines of an individual has certain rights to access the government, and if to do so he must visit a government building, and if that government building has a rule that requires the citizen to wear a mask, well that is wrong and indefensible. I don't want to put words in your mouth (although I think I just did.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by equid0x View Post
Furthermore, there is an absence of scientific data showing that the masks actually work for prophylaxis of viruses. People continue to get sick regardless of whether they're wearing the mask and even the CDC has stated that masks won't prevent you from getting the virus. The only way to guarantee yourself sterile air is going to be to bring it in a tank with you. There is, however, evidence that wearing a mask when actually sick is effective in preventing infection of others.
I agree with the bold. I think it goes further: there is evidence that wearing a mask while infected & asymptotic is effective in preventing infection of others.

Given we agree on the bold in your statement, and maybe you'd concede my extension to infected & asymptotic people, what then is permissible to protect others? I think elsewhere you've said that if you were sick, you would stay home. Do you mean symptomatic? Do you include infected yet asymptomatic?

Let me pose a hypothetical. Let's say The Powers That Be had engaged in sophisticated and accurate contact tracing. Let's say they call you & tell you that you inadvertently came into close contact with a known Covid-19 sick person, and they request of you, politely and nicely, that you self-quarantine for 2 weeks.

What would you do?
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Old 05-06-2020, 04:19 PM
 
10,581 posts, read 5,565,177 times
Reputation: 18846
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaSupreme View Post
I think something needs to drastically change inside casinos, more cleaning and hand sanitizer etc, but also perhaps their AC systems. Maybe they are fine already, but I'm sure they could be improved to catch virus particles, that alone should instill some confidence in the public.
Makes sense. I've been thinking about that as well.

Among the cleanest places on the planet are high-end semiconductor fabrication plants, called "fabs" or sometimes called "foundries." The place inside where all the magic happens is called "The Clean Room."

A fab clean room is where they grow the 8+ billion transistors on a sliver of silicon about the size of your thumbnail that ultimately becomes a processor inside a computer. Something as large as a virus could destroy a batch; indeed, an errant cosmic ray passing through the building at the wrong time during manufacture could be the difference between a processor working and not working. Actually, the manufacturing process grows the billions of features on a circular wafer of silicon about the size of a dinner plate (300 mm). Later, they test every semiconductor feature; they cut the wafer into its individual "die" which are tested to see if they work.

A key economic metric is yield - how many of die on the wafer work, and how many are scrapped because they don't. Cleanliness is frequently the difference. About once per decade or so, every single die on the wafer pass a test - that is, all of them work & go on to become microprocessors. It's called a perfect wafer, and it is rare. The engineers & scientists in the fab typically have absolutely no idea what went right to create a perfect wafer. It is only >< that far away from magic.

My point is the air handling & purification technology exists to make large casinos really, really, really clean. They are not going to be "semiconductor fab" level clean, but we can certainly make them about a billion times cleaner than they currently are.

To do so wouldn't even require breaking a sweat. It isn't new science. It is off-the-shelf components.

*****

I recall about a decade ago being recruited to join the Board of Directors of yet another pre-revenue startup back when I lived in Silicon Valley. They were attacking the cost of HVAC in office environments (in contrast to warehouse/industrial). One of the gating items was the noise generated by HVAC in the typical office. It has long been known you could make the office-based commercial HVAC more efficient by spinning up the speed of the blowers quite a bit. That is, with very fast air handling, you could make the environment comfortable to office workers while using less energy. The reason that technique wasn't employed was that fast air handling was quite noisy (air turbulence) which is inconsistent with the typical office environment - either a sea of cubicles or stuffy offices of ambulance chasers. This startup thought it could address this by using sophisticated noise cancellation techniques that are now common in noise cancelling headphones - but enlarged to the entire office building. Think microphones and noise generators inside duct work and at air supply grills, etc, controlled by processors that were add-ons to the existing HVAC systems. Their pitch was the improvements would pay for themselves within 18 months. (I didn't join the board.)


Think of a major casino. Imagine a system of extremely high-volume air handlers, air scrubbers, air sanitizers, purifiers, humidifiers, etc - all designed so that each exhaled breath of a human being at a slot machine or table game goes straight down to a system of floor-based air returns, with extraordinarily clean, purified, sanitized air showering down from the ceiling - all with minimal sound pollution.

It could be done. It isn't rocket science. It does not depend on invention of new technology.
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Old 05-06-2020, 04:27 PM
 
10,581 posts, read 5,565,177 times
Reputation: 18846
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaSupreme View Post
There could be a reason why meat packing plants (not just in the US) and cruise ships spread the virus really effectively, perhaps being close together, poor hygiene and recirculated AC are to blame, that being the case, casinos would be no different.
There are 3 things we are certain of regarding this virus:

1. Population dense environments allow this virus to spread to many people;
2. Population dense environments allow this virus to spread to many people; and
3. Population dense environments allow this virus to spread to many people.
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Old 05-06-2020, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Lone Mountain Las Vegas NV
18,058 posts, read 10,245,104 times
Reputation: 8828
For those who really want to jump in to this...

https://www.lawfareblog.com/long-his...s-american-law

This a recent revival of a 2011 paper and is directed at the Covid-19 affair.

Here is the original 2011 paper for those who wish to inundate themselves in the issues...


http://www.harvardnsj.org/wp-content...ed-Version.pdf
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Old 05-06-2020, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Lone Mountain Las Vegas NV
18,058 posts, read 10,245,104 times
Reputation: 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalExpectations View Post
Makes sense. I've been thinking about that as well.

Among the cleanest places on the planet are high-end semiconductor fabrication plants, called "fabs" or sometimes called "foundries." The place inside where all the magic happens is called "The Clean Room."

A fab clean room is where they grow the 8+ billion transistors on a sliver of silicon about the size of your thumbnail that ultimately becomes a processor inside a computer. Something as large as a virus could destroy a batch; indeed, an errant cosmic ray passing through the building at the wrong time during manufacture could be the difference between a processor working and not working. Actually, the manufacturing process grows the billions of features on a circular wafer of silicon about the size of a dinner plate (300 mm). Later, they test every semiconductor feature; they cut the wafer into its individual "die" which are tested to see if they work.

A key economic metric is yield - how many of die on the wafer work, and how many are scrapped because they don't. Cleanliness is frequently the difference. About once per decade or so, every single die on the wafer pass a test - that is, all of them work & go on to become microprocessors. It's called a perfect wafer, and it is rare. The engineers & scientists in the fab typically have absolutely no idea what went right to create a perfect wafer. It is only >< that far away from magic.

My point is the air handling & purification technology exists to make large casinos really, really, really clean. They are not going to be "semiconductor fab" level clean, but we can certainly make them about a billion times cleaner than they currently are.

To do so wouldn't even require breaking a sweat. It isn't new science. It is off-the-shelf components.

*****

I recall about a decade ago being recruited to join the Board of Directors of yet another pre-revenue startup back when I lived in Silicon Valley. They were attacking the cost of HVAC in office environments (in contrast to warehouse/industrial). One of the gating items was the noise generated by HVAC in the typical office. It has long been known you could make the office-based commercial HVAC more efficient by spinning up the speed of the blowers quite a bit. That is, with very fast air handling, you could make the environment comfortable to office workers while using less energy. The reason that technique wasn't employed was that fast air handling was quite noisy (air turbulence) which is inconsistent with the typical office environment - either a sea of cubicles or stuffy offices of ambulance chasers. This startup thought it could address this by using sophisticated noise cancellation techniques that are now common in noise cancelling headphones - but enlarged to the entire office building. Think microphones and noise generators inside duct work and at air supply grills, etc, controlled by processors that were add-ons to the existing HVAC systems. Their pitch was the improvements would pay for themselves within 18 months. (I didn't join the board.)


Think of a major casino. Imagine a system of extremely high-volume air handlers, air scrubbers, air sanitizers, purifiers, humidifiers, etc - all designed so that each exhaled breath of a human being at a slot machine or table game goes straight down to a system of floor-based air returns, with extraordinarily clean, purified, sanitized air showering down from the ceiling - all with minimal sound pollution.

It could be done. It isn't rocket science. It does not depend on invention of new technology.
A number of decades ago we directed development on an office machine that had a large and very noisy vacuum system. We added 6 or 8 feet of exhaust to it made of heavily insulated pipes. Just ran them back and forth across the back of the machines. The result was a gentle purr that you could not hear over the normal mechanical noises.
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Old 05-06-2020, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
2,880 posts, read 2,787,588 times
Reputation: 2464
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalExpectations View Post
There are 3 things we are certain of regarding this virus:

1. Population dense environments allow this virus to spread to many people;
2. Population dense environments allow this virus to spread to many people; and
3. Population dense environments allow this virus to spread to many people.
I think it's more of a case of dense humans spreading the virus. So many other countries, with higher population densities in their major cities have this under control. Yes it is the biggest factor, but it isn't uncontrollable.
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Old 05-06-2020, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Orange County/Las Vegas
2,510 posts, read 2,716,410 times
Reputation: 2510
Flu season is almost over. Now get back to work.
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Old 05-07-2020, 02:01 AM
 
Location: Aliante
3,475 posts, read 3,260,101 times
Reputation: 2967
They put plexiglass barriers up at game tables and between slot machines at the Casinos for the reopening. Saw it on Fox 5 News. The world is plexiglass now. They have the plexiglass barriers at all the grocery stores and other stores like Lowe's.
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Old 05-07-2020, 02:19 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas
775 posts, read 772,264 times
Reputation: 1586
People are too worried about the wrong things when one considers that all the smoking allowed in casinos will negate all efforts to keep these places clean. And they won’t wear masks. Ewwww.
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