[RationalExpectations]

Originally Posted by tijlover

For all the minimum wage workers, who can only dream of owning a car some day, have no other choices but to be moved from Point A to Point B to Point C. If these car-less Minimum wage workers were unable to get to work, there's businesses that would fail overnight.

Being car-centric yourself, you fail to realize that our streets and highways are also a stupid expenditure of scarce resources.

Thankfully, we do not have light rail today. Those hypothetical employees to which you refer manage their lives without that light rail. The solution isn't light rail. Light rail is stupid precisely because of how capital intensive it is and that it follows fixed, immovable rails. Light rail is stupid in the same way the Maginot Line was stupid.

Light rail costs too much to install.
Light rail costs too much to operate.

The primary beneficiaries of light rail are the construction workers who build it and the public sector employees who operate it. Oh, and the bums who will sleep on it and urinate in it.

[Mike from back east]

Originally Posted by RationalExpectations

... Light rail is stupid in the same way the Maginot Line was stupid. ...

OMG, I thought I was about the only one who understood the Maginot Line.... a monument to the folly of fixed fortifications which Nazi tanks simply drove around and bypassed on their drive to Paris.

[tijlover]

Originally Posted by RationalExpectations

Thankfully, we do not have light rail today. Those hypothetical employees to which you refer manage their lives without that light rail. The solution isn't light rail. Light rail is stupid precisely because of how capital intensive it is and that it follows fixed, immovable rails. Light rail is stupid in the same way the Maginot Line was stupid.

Light rail costs too much to install.
Light rail costs too much to operate.

The primary beneficiaries of light rail are the construction workers who build it and the public sector employees who operate it. Oh, and the bums who will sleep on it and urinate in it.

There are other beneficiaries to light rail. Call it a mystery, as to why, when a light rail line is built, it spurs development at the rail stops, and not along bus routes, creating lots of construction jobs. I've ridden any number of light rail systems in this country and I see it clearly, the construction that develops along these lines. Go check out L.A,'s light rail lines. Big apartment buildings being built on the Gold Line's Moravia and Azusa stops. And there's the Expo line rail stops and other rail stops. It happens in every city where light rail lies are built. But no construction with bus stops? Quite the mystery? At the Pasadena rail stop, 2 big apartment buildings built on both side of the stop.

Here in Tucson, there's continuing construction at the rail stops, 2 5-story apartment buildings built at the terminus of the rail line at Menlo Park. Would this have happened with a bus route? What's the explanation?

Most don't have the vision for it, but if that rail line had been built between the Airport and Downtown Las Vegas, you'd have seen construction activity along that line, guaranteed!

[Mike from back east]

Originally Posted by tijlover

... Call it a mystery, as to why, when a light rail line is built, it spurs development at the rail stops, and not along bus routes, ...

Over a period of 30 years I watched how construction of the heavy rail DC Metro System was the catalyst to rebuild much of the city and suburbs to add density around the subway stops. In normal times it handles about 750k riders per day and the city would not be livable without it; with it, the city is fairly civilized albeit it crowded and expensive. I rode plenty of times to/from the stop under the Pentagon.

In some areas, neighbors got together to form a full square block of homes they were willing to sell en-masse to developers who were lusting to build large high rise apartments and office towers. Those folks sold their homes for 2-4 times the market value.

People want out of their damned cars.

DC Metro. Transformed. The. Region.

[indy_317]

Originally Posted by tijlover

There are other beneficiaries to light rail. ... Go check out L.A,'s light rail lines. Big apartment buildings being built on the Gold Line's Moravia and Azusa stops. And there's the Expo line rail stops and other rail stops. It happens in every city where light rail lies are built. But no construction with bus stops? Quite the mystery? At the Pasadena rail stop, 2 big apartment buildings built on both side of the stop.

Here in Tucson, there's continuing construction at the rail stops, 2 5-story apartment buildings built at the terminus of the rail line at Menlo Park. Would this have happened with a bus route? What's the explanation?

I'm in Indianapolis. We are flat in this part of the country, so our entire metro area of about 2M people are spread out in all directions. Some people in my area want light rail, but it would be ridiculous for us to build it. Any place that doesn't have strong density will eventually have severe funding issues with a robust light rail system. If there is good density and it is basically one or two lines, they might be able to break even, but likely won't.

The question is what type and what does the future hold. The work-from-home pandemic change has really had some people and companies rethinking if they really need to go back to the old ways. If people don't pour back into the urban employment centers, then light rail will bankrupt a city/region. I've also never really thought light rail was better than BRT. We just started BRT in Indianapolis. I'll call it what it is: A nice option for M-F workers, and a drunk bus for the weekends bar crowd. It goes from one popular bar area on the north side to a popular bar area on the south side, and of course runs downtown which is another popular bar area.

Our much cheaper to operate BRT has driven growth in terms of apartments, condos, etc.. The downside, they are aimed at the "young professional," mostly just out of college maybe getting their first good job or first entry level management job. Those from Indiana will be more likely to stay here, but they won't likely be able to have a family and live in these areas. The homes are too pricey, the condos and apartments are too small and costly, and the city schools aren't that great (meaning private $chool tuition), so they will flee to the suburbs and drive in to downtown. Those who are coming in from other areas are iffy if they will even stay in this metro.

It is hard to compare places like LA and DC to other cities. LA is massive, DC is big and is the political center of not just the US, but somewhat the world given the standing of our country. Lots of reasons to look at rail in those types of environments. In a lot of mid-sized metros, not so much in terms of money, but in terms of politics, they are popular with the urban dwellers and suburban types who don't want to drive.

[Mike from back east]

Indy, I tend to agree. We've invested so much money in roads that we may as well make use of them but hopefully in a smarter way. One such way might be to make certain streets bus-only throughways which would mimic a dedicated rail right-of-way and avoid the delays of dealing with all the cars. Might work but not sure any area ever gave it a try; closest I've seen is Denver's 16th Street pedestrian mall where only the bus runs and it's a free bus.

[lvmensch]

I would think it is a time to be very cautious. The autonomous vehicles are coming which will vastly change the whole public transport environment. It may for instance make more sense to run a ribbon of asphalt rather than rail. And note that such vehicles can be relatively small and able to run point to point rather than a fixed route. And note that such vehicles will be able to operate nose to tail allowing passenger rates that exceed that of a light or heavy rail.

The next decade or two is going to be very interesting.

[Mike from back east]

Originally Posted by lvmensch

... ... The next decade or two is going to be very interesting.

I hope we live to see it (aka The Old Fart's Prayer).

The "ribbon of asphalt" is similar to my dedicated bus throughway concept.

Rail only seems justified when we have 30-story office and residential towers in a truly dense urban environment.

[RationalExpectations]

Originally Posted by tijlover

...Go check out L.A,'s light rail lines. Big apartment buildings being built on the Gold Line's Moravia and Azusa stops.

That's a bad thing.

Originally Posted by tijlover

...At the Pasadena rail stop, 2 big apartment buildings built on both side of the stop.

Again, a bad thing.

Originally Posted by tijlover

...Here in Tucson... 2 5-story apartment buildings built at the terminus of the rail line at Menlo Park.

Again, a bad thing.

[RationalExpectations]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

OMG, I thought I was about the only one who understood the Maginot Line.... a monument to the folly of fixed fortifications which Nazi tanks simply drove around and bypassed on their drive to Paris.

Well, it appears there are least two of us.