[svt4cobra6]

Yes there are two sides to every story but the market is totally destroyed fuelled by greed. And many that were not greedy were effected adversly, like the middle class hard working locals buying just one moderate house to live in. Is it fair for those forced to move because of a job change and then be subject to huge monthly losses? Las Vegas had no regulation to protect the locals and it was all geared for profits. For example being kicked out of apartments every few months because of condo conversions! No laws to favor locals to purchase homes over any investors. How about limiting the number of homes purchased by investors within specific neighborhoods. Most of the investors that could get out, got out a few years ago as soon as values started dropping.

[RCCCB]

Originally Posted by svt4cobra6

Yes there are two sides to every story but the market is totally destroyed fuelled by greed. And many that were not greedy were effected adversly, like the middle class hard working locals buying just one moderate house to live in. Is it fair for those forced to move because of a job change and then be subject to huge monthly losses? Las Vegas had no regulation to protect the locals and it was all geared for profits. For example being kicked out of apartments every few months because of condo conversions! No laws to favor locals to purchase homes over any investors. How about limiting the number of homes purchased by investors within specific neighborhoods. Most of the investors that could get out, got out a few years ago as soon as values started dropping.

From the market. GREED?
You go to work to make money to buy things you want or need.
You hope your work is valuable and that you could be paid lots of money for what you do.
You go to school, get skills and a degree to be worth more.
You buy things to enjoy your life.
You invest to grow wealth for your family, retirement and to leave to your kids so their life can be better than yours.

If lucky, if you work 60+ hours a week and are smart in your investments you may grow wealthy and earned it. Usually you work more than others to make the extra stuff.

Mostly isn't greed, it's usually just people using their rights to pursue happiness in the USA, but it was never guaranteed.

I think the real estate issue is mostly government interference with business by making laws insisting the poor and undeserving would get loans to buy homes they could never afford to pay for.

Less class envy, more hard work and common sense IMO.

Government is supposed to be a lot smaller than it is and all the attempts at social engineering gave us this current lovely near depression IMO.

I hope lots of people become wealthy. I would not envy or covet thy neighbor's goods or life, they have a right to it IMO.

[cmist]

Yes people need to be responsible, but the factor that keeps slapping me in the face is the fact that lenders chose to deviate from normal qualification procedures JUST BECAUSE it was convenient and lucrative for them. This practice sent alot of unqualified buyers out into the marketplace. Im only suggesting that

1. They should have known better
2. If they truthfully didnt know better, well they were idiots and should at least comfort people by acknowledging their error and say they wont ever loosen qualifications since they see how that screws up the market.

Instead there are some real thick-heads in Vegas that want to make excuses for the banks behavior and just say that everyone should stay within their means. Sure, some people reached farther then they should have, while others were sitting pretty when they got the loan, but thanks to the collapse of the economy brought about by the poor banking choices, everyone gets screwed, including the banks themselves. If they were even considering their own future, they wouldnt have done that.

The retarded remark about closing down fast food because people will get fat is off base. You cant assume that because people expect a bank to behave responsibly, that they would also believe in interfering in every personal affair. In fact, its no longer a "personal affair" when the decision made by someone else AFFECTS ME!!! Then it becomes my affair too.

I have no desire to shut down fast food or protect everyone on every level. Ultimately, someone elses obesity doesnt affect anyone but themselves. In fact, its survival of the fittest, the fat people will die off and make more room for the healthier people. By this same example, the bank is the FAT PIG that is guarded by the govt and will NEVER die off. This greedy hog has conversely choked off millions of healthy people and someone needs to spear that swine! Banks have literally changed the face of the economy by operating dishonestly, and have affected EVERYONE, even innocent bystanders and you said so yourself.

Im guessin you use the word, "socialism" alot to paint people in a negative light, but Im far from socialist. I dont believe in tight regulation at all. I just believe that the banking business ought to have known better. When they were paying off appraisers to appraise homes for 50K more than last week, just to get a loan done when it had no valid comps behind it, how can you blame the consumer? The bank has given them official notice, the appraisal that shows the home buyer that its worth what they are paying. When in fact, it WASNT. There was no justification for the appraisals that were coming out in the time frame! How could a home be worth $200K one month, and then worth $300K a couple weeks later?? There would be NO comps to support that sales price. In fact, I could point you to many articles and appraiser friends that will tell you point blank, appraisers were told to just "make it happen", and they had to pull numbers out of their @ss just so the bank could do the loan.

I know Im beatin a dead horse, I get it. Simple answer: Everyone should just "be responsible" and leave it at that. But since its obvious that the world doesnt work that way, and now that its no longer profitable, the banks dont operate that way either. They are currently back to normal qualifications as usual. Very convenient. Meanwhile if all the banks did was simply "act responsible", it would have turned away the irresponsible borrowers and prevented the train wreck you see now.

If you are going to continue to defend their behavior, Tony, or any other Las Vegan for that matter, you are only painting the picture clearer as to why your city was hit harder than almost anywhere else. That ignorant attitude will prolong your recovery and guarantee an instant replay as soon as its profitable for the banks to operate foolishly again. But hey, maybe everyone will come on here and be hypnotized by Tony's "be responsible" mantra and you'll all be safe.

The first step to any recovery is always acknowledgement, and so far Im really surprised how many people are NOT doing that there.

[tony soprano]

cmist, let me get a few particulars out of the way - I no longer live in Vegas and haven't for some years now. I did buy a condo in Vegas this past summer but I currently rent it out. I visit Vegas frequently and may one day return permanently. Now, on to more important things.

Again, the bank's primary function is to lend money to people/entities at a rate that allows them to earn a profit. The bank has a responsibility to its shareholders, not home buyers. A bank's function is not to counsel people on the advisability of borrowing money to buy overvalued assets. When a bank has a appraisal done it's not to prove to a home buyer that a home is worth worth the purchase price, it's to determine the value of the collateral they're lending against.

Although you say to the contrary, you sound very much like one of those people that need to have their decisions made for them. Or, at the least have someone to point the blame at when they make the wrong decision. Me, I want as much personal freedom as reasonably allowed with the latitude to prosper or fail on my own.

This isn't the first speculative bubble we've seen. I'm sure everyone here is old enough to remember the equity bubble in the late 90s. Peak to trough, the NASDAQ lost 75% of it's value during the tech implosion. That's even worse than Vegas RE. What kind of response do you think someone would get if they started ranting that, "Schwab shouldn't have let me buy Yahoo at $125 a share! Etrade shouldn't have let me buy Palm at $95 a share! They should have known better but all they cared about were making profits so they let me buy them! It's my broker's fault!"

[VerdeOjos5]

Originally Posted by tony soprano

This isn't the first speculative bubble we've seen. I'm sure everyone here is old enough to remember the equity bubble in the late 90s.

old enough means what exactly? I was a teenager in the late 1990s, and pretty sure I wasn't paying attention to any kind of financial markets, so this would have to be the first bubble I can "remember", and it's a hard lesson to have learned.

Im just not sure why you seem to be protecting the banks. or acting like they did nothing wrong?

[Slim10]

Which ironically leads to the diatribe on why banks should not be bailed out.

If it was the banks who decided that they were dumb enough to lend money to pple who couldn't pay, then shouldn't they deserve to go under?

[tony soprano]

Originally Posted by Slim10

Which ironically leads to the diatribe on why banks should not be bailed out.

If it was the banks who decided that they were dumb enough to lend money to pple who couldn't pay, then shouldn't they deserve to go under?

In a word, yes.

[jfkIII]

When you get a hangover, do you blame the liquor store for selling you the Jack Daniels?

When you lose at the craps table, is it the dice's fault, the casino's or the thrower's?

Of course, if you buy a house above your means, it surely is the bank's fault.

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by tony soprano

In a word, yes.

And with the banks gone that says those who had mortgages are now free and clear right? Or at least modified to present market. Fair payment to the lenders for their lack of due care.

[ruready1st]

Originally Posted by cmist

Yes people need to be responsible, but the factor that keeps slapping me in the face is the fact that lenders chose to deviate from normal qualification procedures JUST BECAUSE it was convenient and lucrative for them. This practice sent alot of unqualified buyers out into the marketplace. Im only suggesting that

1. They should have known better
2. If they truthfully didnt know better, well they were idiots and should at least comfort people by acknowledging their error and say they wont ever loosen qualifications since they see how that screws up the market.

...Meanwhile if all the banks did was simply "act responsible", it would have turned away the irresponsible borrowers and prevented the train wreck you see now.

JUST BECAUSE ---If only it were that simple. One of the large reasons lenders were able to deviate from what was normal qualification procedures was due to government interference. The politicians created owning a home, The American Dream, as a political issue. The goal was to increase the home ownership rate, especially among minority groups, who have lower rates of home ownership when compared to the national average. Policies were changed and money was allocated to create more affordable housing opportunities for everyone. Sometimes Lenders were sued to make risky loans. The Gov't opened the flood gates, the lenders, investors and buyers ran with the greed it allowed for everyone. Along the way there were a few politicians here and there that saw warning signs, but no one listened. It was a bipartisan crusade. Everyone was riding the real estate gravy train.

"During the wild late 1990s and the first years of the new century, the dream of home ownership turned hallucinogenic. The home financing industry—at the impetus of the Clinton and Bush administrations—engaged in the biggest promotion of home ownership in decades. Both pushed for public-private partnerships, with HUD and the government-supported financiers like Fannie Mae serving as the mostly silent partners in a rapidly metastasizing mortgage market."

CARPE DIEM: How Gov't. Turned American Dream Into Nightmare

This is a great article about it. Some comments that followed were good too.
The Diversity Recession

Its easier to blame the lenders, but it is a very convoluted issue. A mix of responsibility among lots and lots of entities, not just the lenders.