[swagger]

Originally Posted by tony soprano

The previously quoted NRS code could be easily interpreted to also characterize card counting as a fraudulent act

Here it is again:

It is unlawful for any person ... [t]o place, increase or decrease a bet or to determine the course of play after acquiring knowledge, not available to all players, of the outcome of the game or any event that affects the outcome of the game or which is the subject of the bet or to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge for the purpose of placing, increasing or decreasing a bet or determining the course of play contingent upon that event or outcome.

Pay particular attention to the phrases "not available to all players" and "to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge".

I don't see how that section could be interpreted to say that counting is illegal. Quite the opposite, actually, and it's also pretty clear on "team play", if the "team" members are transferring knowledge of card counts or other such info related to the state of the game.

[tony soprano]

Originally Posted by swagger

Here it is again:

It is unlawful for any person ... [t]o place, increase or decrease a bet or to determine the course of play after acquiring knowledge, not available to all players, of the outcome of the game or any event that affects the outcome of the game or which is the subject of the bet or to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge for the purpose of placing, increasing or decreasing a bet or determining the course of play contingent upon that event or outcome.

Pay particular attention to the phrases "not available to all players" and "to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge".

I don't see how that section could be interpreted to say that counting is illegal. Quite the opposite, actually, and it's also pretty clear on "team play", if the "team" members are transferring knowledge of card counts or other such info related to the state of the game.

The passage says two actions are illegal - 1. acquiring knowledge not available to all players (counting) or 2. aiding anyone in acquiring such knowledge (team play).

I find it odd that you don't see how that quoted section could possibly be interpreted to find counting illegal, yet very clear on team play, when for all intents and purposes team play is group counting.

[mojavedxer]

Originally Posted by tony soprano

The passage says two actions are illegal - 1. acquiring knowledge not available to all players (counting) or 2. aiding anyone in acquiring such knowledge (team play).

I find it odd that you don't see how that quoted section could possibly be interpreted to find counting illegal, yet very clear on team play, when for all intents and purposes team play is group counting.

Not all the members of the team know the count. The better is signaled to come to the table and play large cheques when the count is in their favor and then leave very quickly after profiting from winning three to four large bets.

[swagger]

Originally Posted by tony soprano

The passage says two actions are illegal - 1. acquiring knowledge not available to all players (counting) or 2. aiding anyone in acquiring such knowledge (team play).

I find it odd that you don't see how that quoted section could possibly be interpreted to find counting illegal, yet very clear on team play, when for all intents and purposes team play is group counting.

Well, that's because that knowledge (counting) IS available to all players. The cards are being laid out in front of them. If and/or how they use that information is up to them. Relaying that information (e.g. team play) is a whole different story.

[dynimagelv]

just an aside
I was always told that the pit boss was the guy that could count to 21 without unzipping his fly

I"ll shut up now

[mojavedxer]

Originally Posted by dynimagelv

just an aside
I was always told that the pit boss was the guy that could count to 21 without unzipping his fly

I"ll shut up now

I always found the Casino Managers to be the biggest perverts out there.

[tony soprano]

Originally Posted by swagger

Well, that's because that knowledge (counting) IS available to all players. The cards are being laid out in front of them. If and/or how they use that information is up to them. Relaying that information (e.g. team play) is a whole different story.

If the card count is available to all players, as you note, you have not aided anyone in acquiring "such knowledge" when "such knowledge" has been defined previously in the passage as "knowledge not available to all players".

The passage says two activities are unlawful; 1.) acquiring knowledge unavailable to all players or 2.) aiding someone in acquiring knowledge unavailable to all players. If you say 1.) is legal because all players have the count available to them, then aiding someone in acquiring that same knowledge would be legal as well.

To be clear - my point is not that team play is legal, but rather the NRS code that you're quoting would have to make card counting illegal as a condition for making team play illegal. Card counting is not illegal, so I don't think the code you're quoting meets the bar for proving team play is illegal.

[mojavedxer]

Originally Posted by tony soprano

If the card count is available to all players, as you note, you have not aided anyone in acquiring "such knowledge" when "such knowledge" has been defined previously in the passage as "knowledge not available to all players".

The passage says two activities are unlawful; 1.) acquiring knowledge unavailable to all players or 2.) aiding someone in acquiring knowledge unavailable to all players. If you say 1.) is legal because all players have the count available to them, then aiding someone in acquiring that same knowledge would be legal as well.

To be clear - my point is not that team play is legal, but rather the NRS code that you're quoting would have to make card counting illegal as a condition for making team play illegal. Card counting is not illegal, so I don't think the code you're quoting meets the bar for proving team play is illegal.

Card counting is irrelevant to the code. It's working in collusion with other players to profit.

[tony soprano]

Originally Posted by mojavedxer

Card counting is irrelevant to the code. It's working in collusion with other players to profit.

Collusion for profit is vague. The code that's being quoted is very specific on what acts are unlawful. If you have another code that states colluding for profit is unlawful, that's the one you should be using to make your case.

[mojavedxer]

When your at the tables with your buddies. You are to bet and play your hands and not alter your method of play to benefit another player at the table. It's just like teamplay collusion at a poker table.