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Maybe the government could set up zones within the US. All immigrants with an IQ below 80 have to move to Alaska, between 80 and 100 to Montana and the Dakotas, between 100 and 120 to Michigan and above 120 to Mississippi and West Virginia. I guess the US would be rid of immigrants pretty fast
If there is no Anglo/WASP culture, then there is no Mexican culture, Chinese culture, or Indian culture either. If you want to go down that road then lets just say that Indian culture is simply eating Currey. There you go, thats Indian culture. Eating Currey. And WASP culture is watching Big brother.
I asked you to define what you considered contemporary WASP culture because I don't think there is such a thing. If you do, then fine, please describe it.
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Originally Posted by jonaos
Of course that is nonsense. Culture also means work ethic and emphasis on education among other things. Education and work ethic historically have been strong merits in WASP/Anglo culture.
Again a huge generalization. If you are referring to education and work ethic I'm assuming you have never worked with people from India, China, South Korea, etc. Their attitude to eduaction is on a different plain, and their work ethic is exemplary. I'm not saying it's not apparent amongst contemporary Americans, but doesn't really compare in all seriousness.
Why don't they just kick out all the low IQ inhabitants of the USA? That's probably a more efficient way to go about improving a country... but getting rid of its lowest links. I can't guarantee that I won't fall into that category, but it's a risk I'm willing to take.
BTW education level doesn't equate to IQ. It's more of a socioeconomic thing.
If there is no Anglo/WASP culture, then there is no Mexican culture, Chinese culture, or Indian culture either. If you want to go down that road then lets just say that Indian culture is simply eating Currey. There you go, thats Indian culture. Eating Currey. And WASP culture is watching Big brother.
Of course that is nonsense. Culture also means work ethic and emphasis on education among other things. Education and work ethic historically have been strong merits in WASP/Anglo culture.
Why don't they just kick out all the low IQ inhabitants of the USA? That's probably a more efficient way to go about improving a country... but getting rid of its lowest links. I can't guarantee that I won't fall into that category, but it's a risk I'm willing to take.
BTW education level doesn't equate to IQ. It's more of a socioeconomic thing.
Good idea - let's dump our unwanted people into other nations instead of becoming the flop house of the world allowing other countries to cleanse themselves of their poor and unskilled who only know how to breed.
Many of our "immigrants" come from countries that actually do have schools. Mexico for example (contrary to popular opinion) actually has schools -- all the way to the university level.
What people dont realize is that when most immigrants come to America, an artificial selection takes place. One third of European immigrants returned home, either to return to be with family or because they didn't have the resourcefulness to make it in America. There were no welfare programs and there was a huge insistence upon assimilation. As a result, the most intelligent, hardest working and most cooperative Euro immigrants were selected for. That artificial selection persists for East Asian, South Asians and African immigrants. The ones that come here are by far some of the hardest working and intelligent. This is not so for particularly Mexican immigrants. When just anybody can walk across the border and make a baby, you're not really selecting for the cream of the crop anymore. When a country doesn't select for cooperativeness and intelligence, you get what you see now: chauvinism and poverty. There are plenty of Latinos that live in the US that do very well for themselves. They don't attract attention to themselves and live as any other middle class American does. But there just isn't enough of them. Also, these Latinos tend have the most social and human capital so they are quick to marry off into the general American population and have "Americanized" children, effectively cutting off their own cultural lines (which some would say is a good thing).
The problem is that you have to be a bad guy before you can be a good guy. One has to make certain painful but pragmatic trade offs in order for a multi-heritaged society to work and be a happy populace.
Exactly. Immigration without food stamps, free medical care, government housing and many many other government handouts is a whole different matter.
You're exactly correct - in the past when immigrants came from Europe, there was no affirmative action waiting for them, no free government housing, no food stamp cards so they could buy up more food than they ever dreamed of having.
Back then if the immigrant couldn't adapt, couldn't learn the language, couldn't make it here, they got back on the boat and headed back home.
Now because of our very generous welfare programs, we entice the laziest of all immigrants who not only have no desire to fix their own countries, and improving their countries might mean responsible reproduction, the immigrants know that having a baby means they never have to work again in their lives, they've won the jackpot.
So we have those who are failing in their own homelands because they won't finish school in them, and begin spitting out babies at very young ages even without the welfare handouts of the USA. To them the better life, the American dream means food stamps, government housing, WIC coupons, free babysitting at the Head Start with 3 meals provided in them and all the rest.
There is simply no other reason people would work the lowest paid jobs AND start having children they can't possibly afford here with our very high cost of living. Not even immigrants are really smart enough to have large families and support them on one $5 or $7 an hour seasonal jobs with no benefits like health insurance. The low wages they're happily accepting simply don't cover health insurance plans, housing costs, food costs. Yet they are reproducing like rabbits.
Grasping for straws to nitpick at a misspelled word. But I guess thats all you can muster up in defense of your views [or lack thereof]. Sad but expected.
But if you feel I am so wrong then bring something legitimate up to rebuke me. Really go ahead! Explain why Wasp culture is not what made America what it is. I would love to hear it just for some laughs. Afterall the founding colonies were WASP founded, the Revolution was WASP backed and fought, the Constitution was written by Wasps etc etc. But still I need a chuckle so explain to me why Im wrong.
And while your at it, explain why Australia/Canada and New Zealand are also first world nations and very stable. They are WASP dominated aswell. I guess its just pure luck though huh ? Obviously Mexico and other Latin American nations are doing so well in comparison [sarcasm].
Besides that, there is nothing wrong with expecting immigrants to assimilate into America's dominant culture. Its how it was until the 1970's and it worked extremely well. And if you were to go to any other country, the locals would expect you to adapt to them aswell and not the other way around.
Most of the legal immigration to the United States these days is exceedingly low skilled. The immigrants themselves traditionally take meagerly compensated, menial jobs and thus reduce the operating costs for American businesses, but the benefits to the economy are trivial and short-lived.
Actually, most LEGAL immigration to the US these days is Family based through marriage. I don't believe the government should disallow citizens to marry whomever they choose (and still be able to live in the USA with their spouse) so that big number is really untouchable.
Employment-based immigration is generally done by highly-skilled professionals on H or L visas, and there's no question that these immigrants are big contributors to our economy. Same for investor visas, same for O-visas for the rock/sports mavens.
Diversity immigrant visas require a high school equivalent education. For them and the rest of familial immigration (siblings, parents), I agree with you, but those numbers are not large, really.
Unskilled or low-skill immigrants have no way to immigrate legally to the United States. If you want to propose a system for low-skill immigrants to emigrate, I agree with you that there should be a test for IQ, education level, or whatever other measure you want to use to determine if they can make a positive contribution to our country.
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The children and grandchildren of these immigrants in their majority are destined for urban poverty, with all its social disfunction: high degree of government dependency, crime, especially gang crime, single motherhood and so on.
I'll disagree with this point as it applies to illegal immigrants. 2nd generation immigrants, children of illegals, when they have access to the US education system, tend to do fairly well in school. While they do live in areas with low income levels and high crime, you'll find that they do not take up any social ills at a rate greater than legacy citizens, and perhaps less. One explanation of this is that the majority of illegal immigrants are Hispanic Catholics, and their religion encourages a strong focus on the family, with positive results for their children.
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The long term costs to society far outweigh whatever minute benefits low-skilled immigration provides.
Again, I disagree. Without a supply of low-skill labor, the foundation of the low-tech manufacturing industry, and therefore a good chunk of exports, evaporates.
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Canada and Australia do things slightly better, by favoring certain professions the government deems "needed" and thus excluding most low-skilled immigrants. The problem with their immigration policies is that they expect government bureaucrats to know what's good for the economy of the country.
I agree with this point.
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IQ scores have a moderate correlation with lifetime success (which is better than any other test in existence), including income, and is the only test that can easily be made "culture-neutral" (i.e. not requiring the knowledge of any particular language or customs) - see Raven's matrices, an IQ test consisting of purely graphical puzzles, for an example. Some basic logical puzzles (seating a group of people around a round table and such) can also be easily translated into a large number of languages.
Why not eliminate all forms of current legal immigration and replace it with a perfectly neutral and fair IQ-type test? Anyone in the world could take it at one of the centers for a low fee, and the top scorers, up to the annual limit, would be eligible for green cards (provided they have no criminal records or other such disqualifying factors).
By filling America with the brightest people in the world, we could remain the intellectual, technological and scientific gorilla of the world, ensuring the dominance and prosperity of American civilization for ages to come (at least until we're replaced by robots).
I disagree. I don't think IQ is a good indication of how much a person will contribute to society. Some of the worst sociopaths in history had very high IQ levels. I think an IQ test is an oversimplification of a difficult problem. A more realistic solution is going to require a messy combination of tests and personal judgments of immigration authorities on a low-skilled immigrant's potential contribution to the USA.
I strongly disagree with any proposal to reduce the number of high-skill technical visas issued. Those are people with proven talents we need.
Actually, most LEGAL immigration to the US these days is Family based through marriage. I don't believe the government should disallow citizens to marry whomever they choose (and still be able to live in the USA with their spouse) so that big number is really untouchable.
Employment-based immigration is generally done by highly-skilled professionals on H or L visas, and there's no question that these immigrants are big contributors to our economy. Same for investor visas, same for O-visas for the rock/sports mavens.
Diversity immigrant visas require a high school equivalent education. For them and the rest of familial immigration (siblings, parents), I agree with you, but those numbers are not large, really.
Unskilled or low-skill immigrants have no way to immigrate legally to the United States. If you want to propose a system for low-skill immigrants to emigrate, I agree with you that there should be a test for IQ, education level, or whatever other measure you want to use to determine if they can make a positive contribution to our country.
I'll disagree with this point as it applies to illegal immigrants. 2nd generation immigrants, children of illegals, when they have access to the US education system, tend to do fairly well in school. While they do live in areas with low income levels and high crime, you'll find that they do not take up any social ills at a rate greater than legacy citizens, and perhaps less. One explanation of this is that the majority of illegal immigrants are Hispanic Catholics, and their religion encourages a strong focus on the family, with positive results for their children.
Again, I disagree. Without a supply of low-skill labor, the foundation of the low-tech manufacturing industry, and therefore a good chunk of exports, evaporates.
I agree with this point.
I disagree. I don't think IQ is a good indication of how much a person will contribute to society. Some of the worst sociopaths in history had very high IQ levels. I think an IQ test is an oversimplification of a difficult problem. A more realistic solution is going to require a messy combination of tests and personal judgments of immigration authorities on a low-skilled immigrant's potential contribution to the USA.
I strongly disagree with any proposal to reduce the number of high-skill technical visas issued. Those are people with proven talents we need.
Actually it does. IQ corresponds closely with welfare use. Some sociopaths do have high IQs but a lot of street thugs have low IQs.
It shouldn't be just about IQ, but also education levels and a desire to assimilate and be Americans, and an ability to support themselves and their children here.
As far as keeping high-skill visas very abundant - we have to have that kept to unemployment rates. Americans can be given education - even if it's cheap in the short run to leave Americans unemployed and bring in millions of already trained immigrants.
Most of the legal immigration to the United States these days is exceedingly low skilled. The immigrants themselves traditionally take meagerly compensated, menial jobs and thus reduce the operating costs for American businesses, but the benefits to the economy are trivial and short-lived.
The children and grandchildren of these immigrants in their majority are destined for urban poverty, with all its social disfunction: high degree of government dependency, crime, especially gang crime, single motherhood and so on.
The long term costs to society far outweigh whatever minute benefits low-skilled immigration provides.
Canada and Australia do things slightly better, by favoring certain professions the government deems "needed" and thus excluding most low-skilled immigrants. The problem with their immigration policies is that they expect government bureaucrats to know what's good for the economy of the country.
IQ scores have a moderate correlation with lifetime success (which is better than any other test in existence), including income, and is the only test that can easily be made "culture-neutral" (i.e. not requiring the knowledge of any particular language or customs) - see Raven's matrices, an IQ test consisting of purely graphical puzzles, for an example. Some basic logical puzzles (seating a group of people around a round table and such) can also be easily translated into a large number of languages.
Why not eliminate all forms of current legal immigration and replace it with a perfectly neutral and fair IQ-type test? Anyone in the world could take it at one of the centers for a low fee, and the top scorers, up to the annual limit, would be eligible for green cards (provided they have no criminal records or other such disqualifying factors).
By filling America with the brightest people in the world, we could remain the intellectual, technological and scientific gorilla of the world, ensuring the dominance and prosperity of American civilization for ages to come (at least until we're replaced by robots).
With current immigration, I'm afraid we'll be barely distinguishable from Latin America within several generations. Now, Latin America isn't an awful place to live, of course.. but we could do so much better.
1) Dream on!! Most of the brightest, from the best universities, even in fields of science, end up working for Wall Street, not just for a season, but as a lifetime career. Going into research and development doesn't pay that well, going into the business end pays a lot more.
Only the people that money doesn't matter as much to may be willing to go into fields that pay substantially less, esp. if their work is going to make millions/billions for private investors, not them. The government has cut a lot of programs to help people with the brains, education and willingness who don't think private investors should exploit financially the fruit of their labors.
2a) Since the average American's IQ has dropped to what was considered borderline retardation, from in the low 100's (lowest score for "average" intelligence) to mid-high 90's (what used to be considered below "average"), how is that going to work? I know of quite a few "typical, born in the USA white Americans" that obviously don't have a very high intelligence, and probably wouldn't pass the IQ test within the range of normal. What do we do with the stupid Americans, born in the USA and of all races, deport them to an American territory that isn't a state?
2b) And then there is the problem of administering a test to so many people of varying cultural norms. The only way to even attempt to have a "fair" test would be to make it all mathematical, but if someone hasn't learned a certain degree of math because in his/her native land education wasn't availabe to the poorest, that person could still be a genius and end up with a very low score.
I think there are too many problems with your idea, in other words, an IQ test is ludicrous!!
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