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I have a simple question, about those trying to get into the US as legal citizens.
We have Canadians come here every day, legally, and merge into society. There has also been a recent influx of India natives; my complex is full of them. I've seen some from Korea, some from even Vietnam. They're living, taxpaying citizens, all legal. And it's not like a trickle charge, I mean in some cases they're the majority. I figure some are working for companies that have international presence and thus offer employees visas and such, but it's got to be more than that.
I hear all the time about how hard it is to get citizenship, that it's a long process and takes all sorts of money and such. I realize the economic disparity between the countries, especially places like Vietnam, so why is it that all of these countries are managing to get legal yet residents of Mexico cannot? The only rebuttal I've heard so far is the difficulty of the citizen process, but it can't be too hard if we have legal migration from other countries all the time. Has anyone ever analyzed exactly why we have this issue in the first place?
This is a serious question. I don't want hate talk. I want to understand it, because right now it makes no sense to me.
Many Vietnamese immigrants (and Hmong) are refugees (a special visa not applicable to most residents of Latin American countries) or descendants of refugees and Vietnamese who married US citizens during the war.
Many Indian and Chinese immigrants have come through H1-b visas converted to Green Cards. Each of those countries has 1 billion people compared to our 300 million. With such large talent pool to draw from, and with a flood of money from new manufacturing (China) and service (India) industries, wealthy families from these countries are able to send their children to the US for a world-class education. Immigrating and attending school in a foreign country is a DIFFICULT endeavor, so these immigrants are the most motivated, studious, and industrious people that their countries have to offer. Thus they do, on average, exceed the level of education and motivation of your typical US worker or student. They exceed the average back home as well. That's why I advocate encouraging them to stay and contribute to our economy and technological innovation.
I can attest that I am beginning to prefer working with foreigners. When I call or email them at 2AM, they will usually be up still working on the project or homework--just as I am. There's a much better chance of an Indian or Chinese counterpart being willing to put in the work to get a project accomplished. US students, on the other hand, are more likely to take more time for socialization, not show up for work beyond the minimum, and not accomplish a task they said they would complete. That's not to say I haven't had lazy foreign counterparts or hard-working US coworkers. On a current project, my best teammates are: 1. US Citizen, 2. Ecuadorian national. 3. Indian national. 4. US citizen. 5. Ivory Coast National. 6. US Citizen.
I'm sorry, but this does not make sense to me. Americans get denied for being American and born in America???
Huh?! Doesn't make any sense?? Why?? You've never heard of race and gender quotas?? You've never heard of diversity?? Or the myth that this "strengthens" a society?? Ignoring the fact that there is not a heterogenous society on earth that gets along. You've never heard of this thing called affirmative action??
Quote:
Originally Posted by mricu
This also is incorrect. I'm guessing you are not familiar with the American immigration rules. To obtain a work visa for anyone working in the US, the US company must show proof of the following:
- That they tried their best to find an American to fill the position they are seeking and were unsuccessful.
- They must show in detail how the immigrant saitisfies each the requirements for the position they are filling.
- The company is paying fair market wages for the position for which the immigrant will fill..
Unbelievable!! It's amazing how immigrants such as yourself will rationalize missinformation to justify your purpose. You think a
company must pay "fair wages"??? It sounds like you're living in a dream world. You've believed that the U.S. is a utopia for so long, you don't think companies would dare hire someone for cheap wages?? This is one of the reasons why unions exist, because companies often don't pay fair wages. However, when it comes to management, technology, or any other research unions don't exist. Companies are not under ANY obligation to pay any type of specific wage.
Fair market wages or obtained from statistical data from other companies within the same city with the same types of positions as well as from professional associations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mricu
If they are paying much less then what an American will get paid, they will be denied a working visa.
And how are wages determined? You think in a poor economy companies will pay the same wages as in a robust economy?? And what ever rules are in place, companies always bend the rules, they get around them, we see it in the media on Wall street all the time.
People are so desperate to come here to live in a superior occidental society, that they will do anything....anything. What these people do is set out an "anchor." An anchor is often a college student from a place like India or China who's sole goal is the become established in this country. They have no intention of ever going back, regardless of the job market. Most colleges and institutions have conferences, and other meetings which teach students how to become established, i.e. permanent residents. After they are successful, they send for their entire families. Their parents, their aunts, uncles, all their brothers and sisters, other members of extended family. Often they will have people who are not even related passing off as relatives to gain entry into this country. Many of these people can apply for AFDC benefits, and other subsidies as well. It happens all the time.
People are so desperate to come here to live in a superior occidental society, that they will do anything....anything. What these people do is set out an "anchor." An anchor is often a college student from a place like India or China who's sole goal is the become established in this country. They have no intention of ever going back, regardless of the job market. Most colleges and institutions have conferences, and other meetings which teach students how to become established, i.e. permanent residents. After they are successful, they send for their entire families. Their parents, their aunts, uncles, all their brothers and sisters, other members of extended family. Often they will have people who are not even related passing off as relatives to gain entry into this country. Many of these people can apply for AFDC benefits, and other subsidies as well. It happens all the time.
You are sadly misinformed. A permanent resident cannot petition for anyone but their spouse and children. Once a LPR becomes a citizen (Usually a 5-10 year process), they can then petition for extended family including siblings and parents, though the wait times are so long (upwards of 10 years) that your mythical "anchors" would take:
4-6 years at a university
1 year OPT training and job hire
2 years working as a H visa holder
5 years as a LPR before citizenship and petitioning for a sibling or parent
10 years waiting for their number to come up.
For a grand total (minimum) of 22 years from "anchor" to family Green Card. This does not "happen all the time."
There is no such thing as petitioning for grandparents, aunts, uncles, or other members of an extended family. Anyone who tells you this is lying to further their anti-immigrant cause, just plain ignorant, or (more likely) both.
In the past, the majority of University graduates with technical degrees did, indeed, stay in the United States thanks to a large H-visa quota for skilled workers (400,000 per year) and good economic opportunity and freedom in the US compared to India and China. The landscape has worryingly changed for US over the past decade and now most foreign-born, US-educated scientists and Engineers return to their country of origin because of improving economic conditions in their home countries and lowered caps on H-visas (65,000 per year).
Unbelievable!! It's amazing how immigrants such as yourself will rationalize missinformation to justify your purpose. You think a company must pay "fair wages"??? .... you don't think companies would dare hire someone for cheap wages?? This is one of the reasons why unions exist, because companies often don't pay fair wages. However, when it comes to management, technology, or any other research unions don't exist. Companies are not under ANY obligation to pay any type of specific wage.
How sad it is when one writes something based on only opinion and not facts.
I have been through the process and have seen first hand exactly what the requirements are and has also witnessed others not getting visa's soley due to the company not offering fair market wages. This is fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rb62
And how are wages determined? You think in a poor economy companies will pay the same wages as in a robust economy?? And what ever rules are in place, companies always bend the rules, they get around them, we see it in the media on Wall street all the time.
As I mentioned, wages are determined based on statistical data within an industry, wages at other local companies within the same industry along with wage survey's conducted by professional associations.
Wages for professionals (lawyers, doctors, engineers, IT, etc.) do not fluctuate to a great extent due to economic factors. Wages most effected by economic factors are non-professional in nature. Feel free to look it up, you will be hard pressed to find average wages changing +/- 5% for a given job description with a given experience level in the professional field.
As for a company hiring someone to do one job, but using a lower paying job title/description, that may be possible (Example: hiring a level 5 engineer, but offering only a level 3 position). But again, the company must show that they could not find a level 3 engineer within the US that fit their requirements.
However, in one example a previous poster said a immigrant technical person was offered a job in their company under an "administrative" title instead of a technical one. Well, that cannot be the case because H1B visa's are only for professional jobs, not administrative. If a company brought them from overseas using the "administative" job description, it would not go through.
I have a simple question, about those trying to get into the US as legal citizens.
We have Canadians come here every day, legally, and merge into society. There has also been a recent influx of India natives; my complex is full of them. I've seen some from Korea, some from even Vietnam. They're living, taxpaying citizens, all legal. And it's not like a trickle charge, I mean in some cases they're the majority. I figure some are working for companies that have international presence and thus offer employees visas and such, but it's got to be more than that.
I hear all the time about how hard it is to get citizenship, that it's a long process and takes all sorts of money and such. I realize the economic disparity between the countries, especially places like Vietnam, so why is it that all of these countries are managing to get legal yet residents of Mexico cannot? The only rebuttal I've heard so far is the difficulty of the citizen process, but it can't be too hard if we have legal migration from other countries all the time. Has anyone ever analyzed exactly why we have this issue in the first place?
This is a serious question. I don't want hate talk. I want to understand it, because right now it makes no sense to me.
You are sadly misinformed. A permanent resident cannot petition for anyone but their spouse and children. Once a LPR becomes a citizen (Usually a 5-10 year process), they can then petition for extended family including siblings and parents, though the wait times are so long (upwards of 10 years) that your mythical "anchors" would take:
4-6 years at a university
1 year OPT training and job hire
2 years working as a H visa holder
5 years as a LPR before citizenship and petitioning for a sibling or parent
10 years waiting for their number to come up.
For a grand total (minimum) of 22 years from "anchor" to family Green Card. This does not "happen all the time."
There is no such thing as petitioning for grandparents, aunts, uncles, or other members of an extended family. Anyone who tells you this is lying to further their anti-immigrant cause, just plain ignorant, or (more likely) both.
In the past, the majority of University graduates with technical degrees did, indeed, stay in the United States thanks to a large H-visa quota for skilled workers (400,000 per year) and good economic opportunity and freedom in the US compared to India and China. The landscape has worryingly changed for US over the past decade and now most foreign-born, US-educated scientists and Engineers return to their country of origin because of improving economic conditions in their home countries and lowered caps on H-visas (65,000 per year).
Both this year and last year H-1B cap (usually reached on April 1st) haven't been reached.So far this year there are only about 15,000 applications received. One assumes that's the effect of the economy.
I would like to point out that there are many many more Green cards given out based on family sponsorship rather than empoyment, plus the system fails to promote diversity.
Which is why I suggest we extend a Green Card offer to anyone who graduates with a technical degree from a major university with a GPA above a certain level, and curtail family-based immigration. I see no reason why siblings of citizens should be allowed to emigrate without any other merit than being the brother or sister of a US citizen. Parents, I can understand.
What is the goal of promoting diversity? I see a more tangible benefit in inviting intelligent and motivated high-skill workers into the country rather than people who would increase diversity.
I have a simple question, about those trying to get into the US as legal citizens.
We have Canadians come here every day, legally, and merge into society. There has also been a recent influx of India natives; my complex is full of them. I've seen some from Korea, some from even Vietnam. They're living, taxpaying citizens, all legal. And it's not like a trickle charge, I mean in some cases they're the majority. I figure some are working for companies that have international presence and thus offer employees visas and such, but it's got to be more than that.
I hear all the time about how hard it is to get citizenship, that it's a long process and takes all sorts of money and such. I realize the economic disparity between the countries, especially places like Vietnam, so why is it that all of these countries are managing to get legal yet residents of Mexico cannot? The only rebuttal I've heard so far is the difficulty of the citizen process, but it can't be too hard if we have legal migration from other countries all the time. Has anyone ever analyzed exactly why we have this issue in the first place?
This is a serious question. I don't want hate talk. I want to understand it, because right now it makes no sense to me.
Mexico holds at least as many legal residents as the countries you mention. Probably more.
The doors are fairly open to skilled, educated people (university degree upwards). The path to permanent residence is still a pain in the posterior, but at least the door is there.
In the case of unskilled workers, the problem is that there is a demand, there is no door (there are no visas for unskilled workers) and there is a HUGE border. If India and Vietnam shared a border that size, you'd see as many illegal of them as you see Mexicans.
We have more technical colleges than any other country in the world, and there are plenty of Americans who geet denied acceptance every year only because of there race, and the fact that they were born here.
Another main concern, is that the foreign workers are often willing to take less pay for the same work.
What they care about is $$$.
Hmmm, are you sure about the 1st sentence? I'm not familiar with technical schools as I went to college/university. However, when white male Americans get denied admission because of diversity as you are alluding to, its for American citizens or American permanent residents of other ethnicities...which is very different from an INTERNATIONAL STUDENT. I find it hard to believe that a college/university would want a majority of INTERNATIONALS in their student body. Or are you not including people of colour in America as Americans/American LPR?
Regarding your second sentence, I agree with you in part, and with the others as well. However, I don't believe that the foreign worker sits with the employer and says "YES, I will take less pay". I think the EMPLOYER is quite shady usually and knows that a foreigner coming from a country where they could possibly make $10K for doing Job A in their country which actually translates into a fairly decent living will JUMP at the chance of doing that same job in America for $40K with the possibility of American citizen down the tube than say an American or American LPR who has studied here, taken out school loans here, is already living the American dream and expects at least $60K so they can afford to pay back those loans, get a mortgage etc.
Regarding sentence #3, well money makes the world go round, n'est-ce pas?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cokatie
Don't kid yourself - many of the other nationalities here in the US have over-stayed their work or visitor visas.
Concur, I don't know why when one says Illegal we conjure up the image of a Mexican. Hanz Merkelbaum, Didier Pierot, Li Fat Foo, and Olu Babatunde are also having restless nights hoping no-one finds out they have overstayed their welcome in the US and deports them. But as luck would have it, if any of these (well maybe not Li or Olu) were to be stopped in Arizona for a traffic violation, it's unlikely the police will ask for proof of their right to be in America. But that's a different topic...
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrex62
White Males being the principal unprotected group ...are at some disadvantage because of their sex and race and larger percentage of their group applying for the limited slots at a given school
There are lots of games and loopholes companies can use to make things look equal when they really are not.
Sentence 1: maybe so, but those white males are competing with Americans or American LPR who are not white males...not INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS.
Sentence 2: Agree re: the loop-holes.
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