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Old 04-25-2010, 10:59 AM
 
2,639 posts, read 5,491,965 times
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I have a simple question, about those trying to get into the US as legal citizens.

We have Canadians come here every day, legally, and merge into society. There has also been a recent influx of India natives; my complex is full of them. I've seen some from Korea, some from even Vietnam. They're living, taxpaying citizens, all legal. And it's not like a trickle charge, I mean in some cases they're the majority. I figure some are working for companies that have international presence and thus offer employees visas and such, but it's got to be more than that.

I hear all the time about how hard it is to get citizenship, that it's a long process and takes all sorts of money and such. I realize the economic disparity between the countries, especially places like Vietnam, so why is it that all of these countries are managing to get legal yet residents of Mexico cannot? The only rebuttal I've heard so far is the difficulty of the citizen process, but it can't be too hard if we have legal migration from other countries all the time. Has anyone ever analyzed exactly why we have this issue in the first place?

This is a serious question. I don't want hate talk. I want to understand it, because right now it makes no sense to me.
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Old 04-25-2010, 01:02 PM
 
Location: SoCal
674 posts, read 2,561,244 times
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The reason why we have people all over the world coming into the US (myself included) on working visa's is because there is a serious lack of US citizens with education in the techical fields. It is these fields (IT, engineering etc.) that most of the working visa's are issued for.

Hence, the US companies are able to bring people from say, India and China on the basis that they cannot find the people with required credentials here in the US.

So way not find people from Mexico on the same basis? I'm sure they do, however, there usually are not that many applicants from Mexico with the same technical background and expertise that can be found from India, China, Canada etc.
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Old 04-25-2010, 02:14 PM
 
1,003 posts, read 2,436,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mricu View Post
The reason why we have people all over the world coming into the US (myself included) on working visa's is because there is a serious lack of US citizens with education in the techical fields. It is these fields (IT, engineering etc.) that most of the working visa's are issued for.

Hence, the US companies are able to bring people from say, India and China on the basis that they cannot find the people with required credentials here in the US.

So way not find people from Mexico on the same basis? I'm sure they do, however, there usually are not that many applicants from Mexico with the same technical background and expertise that can be found from India, China, Canada etc.
I think this answer is more politically correct than factual. People who come here from places like India and China are desperate to come here, and colleges strive for "diversity." We have more technical colleges than any other country in the world, and there are plenty of Americans who geet denied acceptance every year only because of there race, and the fact that they were born here. Another main concern, is that the foreign workers are often willing to take less pay for the same work. College tuition is also another factor. Colleges have been continuously raising tuition rates much faster than inflation rates. By attracting foreign students, and with no limit of how many they can accept, it creates a perfect environment for colleges and universities to raise tuition out of sight. My own alma mata did what many colleges have done. They decided to become a university, for the simple reason it attracts more foreign students. It is also important to realize and understand, that colleges and universities don't care about what kind of talent this country attracts or creates per se. What they care about is $$$.
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Old 04-25-2010, 02:28 PM
 
443 posts, read 1,129,490 times
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Mexican friends of mine who immigrated legally said the only reason they were able to do it is because they have money. Half their immigration costs went on the legal expenses of immigration, half went on bribes to the Mexican officials. No bribe money, no visa.

No one's going to give you a visa to pick strawberries or scrub toilets. We can fill those jobs with Americans (though we often don't, but that's a different story). Even immigrating through the family chain takes years, sometimes a decade, and if you're starving now, you need money now. You're not going to wait years to get it. Never underestimate how desperate people get: you don't walk through the Arizona desert, in summer, with no water, for laughs.

Don't forget the geography issue: the reason that Mexicans can say "screw it, I'm hopping the border" is because it's RIGHT there. A Vietnamese person could do that too, I guess, if they flew to Mexico first. Canadians have less bribery to deal with and come from a wealthier country, so I think this is less likely to happen with Canadians.

Until people get less desperate, and/or the entire border is wired up with mega death ray lasers, people are always going to keep crossing that border.
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Old 04-25-2010, 08:30 PM
 
1,785 posts, read 3,177,714 times
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Don't kid yourself - many of the other nationalities here in the US have over-stayed their work or visitor visas. This is not just something related to Mexicans - albeit, they are the ones currently being targeted because of their large numbers. In saying that, I don't have a problem with it since illegal is illegal.

One other point for the original OP - each country has a certain quota of people that the US will accept. I do not believe this includes those coming in on legal work visas - but rather those who have applied for legal immigration from their home country to the US. There is a website that can give you the numbers (I'm sure) for each region of the world.

I also acknowledge that Mricu is correct. There are large numbers of better trained, and in some cases, better educated individuals in the field of Math, Science and Technology coming from countries such as India, Russia and China.
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Old 04-25-2010, 08:39 PM
 
Location: SoCal
674 posts, read 2,561,244 times
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Originally Posted by 1979 View Post
We have more technical colleges than any other country in the world, and there are plenty of Americans who geet denied acceptance every year only because of there race, and the fact that they were born here.
I'm sorry, but this does not make sense to me. Americans get denied for being American and born in America???

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1979 View Post
Another main concern, is that the foreign workers are often willing to take less pay for the same work.
This also is incorrect. I'm guessing you are not familiar with the American immigration rules. To obtain a work visa for anyone working in the US, the US company must show proof of the following:
- That they tried their best to find an American to fill the position they are seeking and were unsuccessful.
- They must show in detail how the immigrant saitisfies each the requirements for the position they are filling.
- The company is paying fair market wages for the position for which the immigrant will fill.

Fair market wages or obtained from statistical data from other companies within the same city with the same types of positions as well as from professional associations.

If they are paying much less then what an American will get paid, they will be denied a working visa.
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Old 04-25-2010, 09:26 PM
 
1,785 posts, read 3,177,714 times
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Mricu is again correct. I worked for a large international company and in order to transfer our employees, the rules/laws he set out above are 100% accurate. On the flip side, while working for this company I (an American) was transferred to the UK where I had to meet VERY similiar standards to the ones above.

The sad fact is, 1979, that employers are looking for the best qualified workers and in some cases, they are not American born or American citizens. If you could see the education level taught in Japanese, Indian and European schools, you would be shocked at how much more pressure is put on excellence. A vast majority of our public schools would fail miserably in the comparison. Not all schools - but a large number. And I am truly sorry to have to write that.
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Old 04-26-2010, 09:18 PM
 
1,644 posts, read 4,241,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mricu View Post
The reason why we have people all over the world coming into the US (myself included) on working visa's is because there is a serious lack of US citizens with education in the techical fields. It is these fields (IT, engineering etc.) that most of the working visa's are issued for.

Hence, the US companies are able to bring people from say, India and China on the basis that they cannot find the people with required credentials here in the US.

So way not find people from Mexico on the same basis? I'm sure they do, however, there usually are not that many applicants from Mexico with the same technical background and expertise that can be found from India, China, Canada etc.
Majority of Mexicans get permanent residency (not the same as being a citizen-you have to be a perm' res first) based on family not employment.
164,000 mexicans got permanent residency last year.


The department of homeland security produce a yearbook and have just released 2009s.
http://www.dhs.gov/files/statistics/.../yearbook.shtm

Makes fairly interesting reading, especially if you look at figures for individual countries and by Green card category.
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Old 04-26-2010, 09:20 PM
 
1,644 posts, read 4,241,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cokatie View Post
Mricu is again correct. I worked for a large international company and in order to transfer our employees, the rules/laws he set out above are 100% accurate. On the flip side, while working for this company I (an American) was transferred to the UK where I had to meet VERY similiar standards to the ones above.

The sad fact is, 1979, that employers are looking for the best qualified workers and in some cases, they are not American born or American citizens. If you could see the education level taught in Japanese, Indian and European schools, you would be shocked at how much more pressure is put on excellence. A vast majority of our public schools would fail miserably in the comparison. Not all schools - but a large number. And I am truly sorry to have to write that.
You would need to exclude the UK there, at least in Math. US Math is far more traditional than the rubbishe they teach in the UK now.
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Old 04-26-2010, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Rural Central Texas
3,631 posts, read 9,757,360 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mricu View Post
I'm sorry, but this does not make sense to me. Americans get denied for being American and born in America???
I don't know that this statement is as true as it seems. Many Universities and colleges make efforts to increase diversity among the student mix to avoid the appearance of favoring any unprotected group of applicants. White Males being the principal unprotected group can find more of it's applicants being denied than any of the protected groups when evaluated by % of applicants. While it is not true that they are being denied acceptance because they are American or born in America, it is true that they are at some disadvantage because of their sex and race and larger percentage of their group applying for the limited slots at a given school



Quote:
Originally Posted by mricu View Post
This also is incorrect. I'm guessing you are not familiar with the American immigration rules. To obtain a work visa for anyone working in the US, the US company must show proof of the following:
- That they tried their best to find an American to fill the position they are seeking and were unsuccessful.
- They must show in detail how the immigrant saitisfies each the requirements for the position they are filling.
- The company is paying fair market wages for the position for which the immigrant will fill.

Fair market wages or obtained from statistical data from other companies within the same city with the same types of positions as well as from professional associations.

If they are paying much less then what an American will get paid, they will be denied a working visa.
On paper everything you state is true. I know from experience with a number of tech companies that visa'd workers are often paid much less than non-visa'd workers doing the same job. The loop hole is that the foreign worker is classified as a different job class as the other people doing the same work. While most of the tech workers may be classified as a technical consultant, the work on visa may find themselves classified as Administrative, or a lower scale of consultant despite doing equal work.

I know one of my peers recently enjoyed a 60% lower pay rate than myself and I was not one of the highest paid employees due to my seniority and classification on joining the company. This guy had been doing this job about 5 years longer than I had.

There are lots of games and loopholes companies can use to make things look equal when they really are not.
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