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Old 11-17-2010, 07:51 PM
 
8,679 posts, read 15,223,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMike50 View Post
Hell no...if they did, it would be like living on the Island again
Ummmm, Mike? Yes, they do. They just don't HAVE to belong to their unions, either legally or, from what I recall, via "pressure," if you know what I mean. Virginia is a right-to-work state. I don't know how the police and teachers here do it, but other civil servants pretty much have to belong to their unions.

The major difference that I can see between Virginia and Long Island is that Virginia spreads the tax burden far more equitably, so that there isn't this huge burden on homeowners compared to renters. They take referendums on bonds and stuff like that. They also institute things like the infamous car tax, on which Virginians pay a form of property tax on their cars every year, instead of just the sales tax when they buy them. (Yeah. No. Not a popular tax. People up here would have apoplexy worse than they do down there.) They would also tax my computer if I lived down there, because I make my livelihood through it at present, so it's "business property."

Here is [URL="http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dta/tax_rates.htm"]Fairfax County's tax break-down[/URL].

But that just brings us right back to the same ol' stuff I've been saying all along. If people on Long Island want stuff to change, they're going to have to make a case to Albany, because the whole state is run bass-ackwards.

Also, the funds are allocated differently. For example, schools in Virginia are divided by county, not district. There are wayyyy too many school districts on Long Island for the system to be even remotely efficient. The bloat is in administration.

But, as someone said, maybe in another thread, Islanders love their tiny little districts. Maybe it makes people feel more empowered locally, I don't know. But when you have all of those districts with all of those superintendents and deputy superintendents, etc., that's what adds up. You're going to have pretty much the same number of teachers. Start merging districts and the number of administrators will go down, and with that the amount needed for administrative salaries.

Last edited by Yzette; 11-17-2010 at 08:03 PM.. Reason: left a word out

 
Old 11-17-2010, 07:55 PM
 
35 posts, read 41,505 times
Reputation: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avienne View Post
Your ignorance implied one.
What was I ignorant about and what did it imply? If you want to be snide, back it up with some facts.
 
Old 11-17-2010, 08:05 PM
 
8,679 posts, read 15,223,226 times
Reputation: 15341
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLtoLONGISLAND View Post
What was I ignorant about and what did it imply? If you want to be snide, back it up with some facts.
You're falling behind. Try to keep up now.
 
Old 11-17-2010, 08:11 PM
 
35 posts, read 41,505 times
Reputation: 22
Thumbs down Smile miserable people, smile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avienne View Post
You're falling behind. Try to keep up now.
Mike posted about a budget surplus in his county and I posted how schools, which are run by the county, did not have a budget surplus. So please, tell me where I implied ignorance otherwise I'll take this as your attempt to pick a fight with yet another member on this board.
 
Old 11-17-2010, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Wallens Ridge
3,122 posts, read 4,933,627 times
Reputation: 17269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avienne View Post
Ummmm, Mike? Yes, they do. They just don't HAVE to belong to their unions, either legally or, from what I recall, via "pressure," if you know what I mean. Virginia is a right-to-work state. I don't know how the police and teachers here do it, but other civil servants pretty much have to belong to their unions.

The major difference that I can see between Virginia and Long Island is that Virginia spreads the tax burden far more equitably, so that there isn't this huge burden on homeowners compared to renters. They take referendums on bonds and stuff like that. They also institute things like the infamous car tax, on which Virginians pay a form of property tax on their cars every year, instead of just the sales tax when they buy them. (Yeah. No. Not a popular tax. People up here would have apoplexy worse than they do down there.) They would also tax my computer if I lived down there, because I make my livelihood through it at present, so it's "business property."

Here is Fairfax County's tax break-down.

But that just brings us right back to the same ol' stuff I've been saying all along. If people on Long Island want stuff to change, they're going to have to make a case to Albany, because the whole state is run bass-ackwards.

Also, the funds are allocated differently. For example, schools in Virginia are divided by county, not district. There are wayyyy too many school districts on Long Island for the system to be even remotely efficient. The bloat is in administration.

But, as someone said, maybe in another thread, Islanders love their tiny little districts. Maybe it makes people feel more empowered locally, I don't know. But when you have all of those districts with all of those superintendents and deputy superintendents, etc., that's what adds up. You're going to have pretty much the same number of teachers. Start merging districts and the number of administrators will go down, and with that the amount needed for administrative salaries.

Ha Ha you know I know all this I posted about this many times....Moderator cut: language removed

Last edited by nancy thereader; 11-17-2010 at 08:53 PM..
 
Old 11-18-2010, 02:16 AM
 
Location: Wellsville, Glurt County
2,845 posts, read 10,472,990 times
Reputation: 1417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avienne View Post
Ummmm, Mike? Yes, they do. They just don't HAVE to belong to their unions, either legally or, from what I recall, via "pressure," if you know what I mean. Virginia is a right-to-work state. I don't know how the police and teachers here do it, but other civil servants pretty much have to belong to their unions.
Right-to-work! Right-to-work! Right-to-work! Word of the day! Right-to-work!

So, like I_Love_LI_but suggested many pages ago, do you agree we would be much better off in New York if we adopted (here's that term again) right-to-work labor laws that would allow government agencies to hire non-union employees and thus not require taxpayers to fund the current salaries and benefits guaranteed by the union contracts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avienne View Post
The major difference that I can see between Virginia and Long Island is that Virginia spreads the tax burden far more equitably, so that there isn't this huge burden on homeowners compared to renters. They take referendums on bonds and stuff like that. They also institute things like the infamous car tax, on which Virginians pay a form of property tax on their cars every year, instead of just the sales tax when they buy them. (Yeah. No. Not a popular tax. People up here would have apoplexy worse than they do down there.) They would also tax my computer if I lived down there, because I make my livelihood through it at present, so it's "business property."
New York State is quite adept at coming up with many creative ways to tax it's residents (MTA "usage surcharge" for downstate residents every time you renew your registration, for example). And renters in NY are paying property tax through the pricing of their monthly rent, as long as they're living in a LEGAL dwelling, since multi-unit housing is taxed at a higher rate than single-residence housing of the same size/type. However I'm not really sure what you're even getting at, since the things you're talking about are obviously state tax measurements that do not directly reflect on local property tax costs....which has been the topic for the last 10 pages. Your local school district does not have the authority to levy a "car property tax" to defer it's costs off people who own less cars or anything like that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avienne View Post
But that just brings us right back to the same ol' stuff I've been saying all along. If people on Long Island want stuff to change, they're going to have to make a case to Albany, because the whole state is run bass-ackwards.
Pretty sure everyone agrees on that one.....very tough to change the situation here on LI when the legislation that allows such a bloated, expensive system to exist has been set in stone up in Albany.

Hate to bring up old dirty laundry, but weren't you the same person telling me once that the above isn't the problem, and it's actually that we Long Islanders keep electing local politicians who have no idea what they're doing? Didn't you tell me that's why the taxes are so high and the cause of all the problems that come along with it?

Yes, you were!

a slightly older thread on a similar topic

Quote:
Originally Posted by A slightly younger Avienne
So, to answer your question, Sean, why are taxes on Long Island so bad?

Because Long Islanders keep electing people who don't know what they're doing. The system is only as broken as YOU, in the general, allow it to be. That's YOUR fault, Long Island.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avienne View Post
Also, the funds are allocated differently. For example, schools in Virginia are divided by county, not district. There are wayyyy too many school districts on Long Island for the system to be even remotely efficient. The bloat is in administration.

But, as someone said, maybe in another thread, Islanders love their tiny little districts. Maybe it makes people feel more empowered locally, I don't know. But when you have all of those districts with all of those superintendents and deputy superintendents, etc., that's what adds up. You're going to have pretty much the same number of teachers. Start merging districts and the number of administrators will go down, and with that the amount needed for administrative salaries.
Virginia is a mostly rural state, obviously. There are as many people in entire counties down there as there are in Hempstead. Would countywide school districts on LI eliminate redundant administration and result in at least somewhat lower taxes? Most likely. Would they be as effective in terms of education? Probably, but tough to say. Would people living in currently decent areas that border less-than-decent ones either throw a sh*t fit or immediately relocate rather than send their kids to school with "undesirables"? Absolutely. Point is, we're talking about two completely different areas with completely different challenges. You can't just point to another state and say "SEE, IT WORKS THERE!" Things are not that simple. When you implement something (like a school district) that covers a massive geographic area (like a county), I think it goes without saying that you face a lot less problems when you're dealing with a lot less people. Of course, it can be done (NYC), but it can also be done effectively and at a reasonable price with smaller districts.....so although the number of administrative staff at all these districts certainly eats up a large chunk of budget, I don't think it's the number one underlying reason for high property taxes by a long shot.

The administrator salaries are the most visible, excessive bloat in this whole system by a long shot.....but the numbers are available for anyone to look at, and even if we eliminate them entirely it only makes a dent. When it comes to school districts, I don't even think the salaries in particular are so extreme, but the cost of benefits - pensions, family healthcare - those things are not sustainable long term.

Anyone is free to have a look for themselves, it's all public record: www.seethroughny.net
 
Old 11-18-2010, 02:33 AM
 
Location: Long Island (chief in S Farmingdale)
22,107 posts, read 19,315,984 times
Reputation: 5265
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean sean sean sean View Post

Virginia is a mostly rural state, obviously. There are as many people in entire counties down there as there are in Hempstead. Would countywide school districts on LI eliminate redundant administration and result in at least somewhat lower taxes? Most likely. Would they be as effective in terms of education? Probably, but tough to say. Would people living in currently decent areas that border less-than-decent ones either throw a sh*t fit or immediately relocate rather than send their kids to school with "undesirables"? Absolutely. Point is, we're talking about two completely different areas with completely different challenges. You can't just point to another state and say "SEE, IT WORKS THERE!" Things are not that simple. When you implement something (like a school district) that covers a massive geographic area (like a county), I think it goes without saying that you face a lot less problems when you're dealing with a lot less people. Of course, it can be done (NYC), but it can also be done effectively and at a reasonable price with smaller districts.....so although the number of administrative staff at all these districts certainly eats up a large chunk of budget, I don't think it's the number one underlying reason for high property taxes by a long shot.

The administrator salaries are the most visible, excessive bloat in this whole system by a long shot.....but the numbers are available for anyone to look at, and even if we eliminate them entirely it only makes a dent. When it comes to school districts, I don't even think the salaries in particular are so extreme, but the cost of benefits - pensions, family healthcare - those things are not sustainable long term.

Anyone is free to have a look for themselves, it's all public record: www.seethroughny.net

One thing to keep in mind is while VA has many small rural counties, it also has some large major suburban counties as well.

Fairfax County is very similar to Nassau in many ways. Large (1 million +) mostly suburban county outside of a major U.S city (Newsday did a story on it about 2-3 years ago), which has the countywide school system. As far as long term stability its something we probably need on Long Island, bit its not something those in the wealthier districts would go for.
 
Old 11-18-2010, 03:22 AM
 
Location: Wellsville, Glurt County
2,845 posts, read 10,472,990 times
Reputation: 1417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smash255 View Post
One thing to keep in mind is while VA has many small rural counties, it also has some large major suburban counties as well.

Fairfax County is very similar to Nassau in many ways. Large (1 million +) mostly suburban county outside of a major U.S city (Newsday did a story on it about 2-3 years ago), which has the countywide school system. As far as long term stability its something we probably need on Long Island, bit its not something those in the wealthier districts would go for.
That's what I think the big problem is. Personally, I'd be thrilled....but most people would lose their sh*t, and that scares me. I don't think it would be just the wealthier districts, either.....for instance, I think people in Baldwin (as much as it gets canned on here) would be FREAKING OUT that their kids would be sharing a classroom with some students who were formerly in Roosevelt, Hempstead or Freeport school districts.

One of the biggest draws - probably the biggest draw - for Long Island is that people consider the schools to be excellent. We might open a whole new can of worms if we start messing with that. I don't know the history on Fairfax County, but looking at Wikipedia quick it seems like it has done most of it's growth since ~1980. If LI started out with two countywide districts and grew from there, I'm sure people would be fine with it and the schools would be just as highly regarded (if not better)....but LI is a much older suburb. Our crappy areas have already been crappy for a very long time and our wealthy areas have already been wealthy for a very long time.

Again, I'm all for it. On paper and in practice, it would work....but getting people to believe and accept that fact? I dunno...
 
Old 11-18-2010, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Wallens Ridge
3,122 posts, read 4,933,627 times
Reputation: 17269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smash255 View Post
One thing to keep in mind is while VA has many small rural counties, it also has some large major suburban counties as well.

Fairfax County is very similar to Nassau in many ways. Large (1 million +) mostly suburban county outside of a major U.S city (Newsday did a story on it about 2-3 years ago), which has the countywide school system. As far as long term stability its something we probably need on Long Island, bit its not something those in the wealthier districts would go for.

Funny the exact same thoughts get recycled over and over. I posted and many other about a county-wide system would help. I never realized how things worked in other places until I moved. You save so much if you get rid of redundant positions and save so much.

If Nassau just adopted the tax policy as they do here, it would make life so much simpler. Like i said before tax is just .95 per every 100. A 300,000 home here worth like 700,000 on L.I the taxes would be 2,850 no matter property size, if you finish your basement or not. You get your assessment letter one line and you know your taxes. In Nassau you get your nice pie chart, separate school tax and the ever changing assessed value.

In Nassau as home values go down taxes still go up. here they go down. They will only go up if the value of your home goes up, which seems fair to me.
 
Old 11-18-2010, 11:57 AM
 
19,587 posts, read 20,416,974 times
Reputation: 16241
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMike50 View Post
Funny the exact same thoughts get recycled over and over. I posted and many other about a county-wide system would help. I never realized how things worked in other places until I moved. You save so much if you get rid of redundant positions and save so much.

If Nassau just adopted the tax policy as they do here, it would make life so much simpler. Like i said before tax is just .95 per every 100. A 300,000 home here worth like 700,000 on L.I the taxes would be 2,850 no matter property size, if you finish your basement or not. You get your assessment letter one line and you know your taxes. In Nassau you get your nice pie chart, separate school tax and the ever changing assessed value.

In Nassau as home values go down taxes still go up. here they go down. They will only go up if the value of your home goes up, which seems fair to me.
Now try explaining that to the politicians and school boards.
I'll bet money they all start sticking their fingers in their ears going "la la la la la la la la la can't hear you la la la la what did you say la la la la maybe I'll paint the ceiling green la la la la la la la la la la is today garbage day la la la la la"
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