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Old 11-23-2010, 08:24 AM
 
852 posts, read 2,012,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomonlineli View Post
This has changed drastically in the past 10 years. The rise of the US News has made schools highly conscious of their placement rates, as it is a key measurement in their rankings. And, no matter their external stance, they all care their positioning in the eyes of the public. It's odd that you would say that the finest schools are Liberal Arts schools, then go on to quote the Ivy Leagues. The Ivy League schools are far from what I would consider liberal arts schools. Yes, they do graduate students with liberal arts degrees, but this is a ever shrinking and small portion of their undergraduate degrees.
The marketing departments at these schools emphasize these numbers, but you'd be hard pressed to find a professor outside of a school of comm, education or nursing who sees his/her role as producing people for industry. The schools themselves do not see themselves as producing careers for students. This is why some schools are now in trouble because their marketing arms are telling students to "find their edge," ostensibly in the job market, at a time when there are no jobs.

Ivy's are no longer liberal arts institutions, but they created the model for them. Their curricula still reflect the goals of liberal arts institutions. Their instruction is not vocationally oriented and is, for the most part, great books oriented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomonlineli View Post
The notion of pursuing a job through education is much older than the GI Bill. Most of the "elite" schools were built to provide seminary educations and produce preachers and clergy. Harvard, the very oldest of our institutions, was founded to train Congregationalist and Unitarian clergy. Schools like Harvard were the original vocational schools in the United States. The focus on vocational schools was around in 1862 when the federal government passed the Morrill Acts. Thus, setting up vocationally specific universities within the United States. Setting up Land Grant institutions like Cornell and MIT. Again, the schools set up by the Land Grant bills were to improve education in a particular industry, agriculture.
If we go back 400 years in the colonies, you are right. Go back further, and that is less true. The trivium and quadrivium pre-exist Harvard; much of it has little to do with the practice of theology. The earliest models of education did train practicing theologians, but it also sequestered people from the masses (i.e., the mace at graduation to beat back the "unwashed") so that they could understand how the world functioned.

You are spot on about the land grant schools. The notion, however, that the masses would attend college for vocational training is relatively new. Yes, prior to 1945 people attended A&Ms and learned agriculture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomonlineli View Post
I don't know about an article 4 years ago by the Atlantic, but a 2005 CEO study showed that only 9% of all Fortune 500 CEOs had a Liberal Arts degreee. This pales in comparison to the 20% in Engineering, 15% in Business Admin, and 11% in Economics.

http://content.spencerstuart.com/sswebsite/pdf/lib/2005_CEO_Study_JS.pdf
If you separate economics out of today's liberal arts, then your numbers appear correct. Most schools I'm aware of include it in the liberal arts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomonlineli View Post
The quest for a Great Books or Liberal Arts degree is disappearing at an alarming rate. Actually, CNBC has done more than a few very interesting pieces on the lack of interest in degrees in English, History, Philosophy and like degrees. Students can't justify paying the current price for an education that is inferior at yielding employment.
I haven't seen convincing evidence that it is inferior at yielding a job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomonlineli View Post
I would agree with you that a smaller class is more conducive to learning, creative thinking, and just an overall better academic environment. It's just a question of what your trying to get out of your experience. Most students, I'm sorry to say, are not going to college to be enlightened. They are going because they know it leads to a higher quality of living.
I think you are absolutely right, and I blame the marketing arms of schools that have tailored colleges via focus grouping, crafting institutions into mini-expensive-club meds. To make that type of school, prices have sky-rocketed. When they encounter the schools, however, they find that the faculty quite often, and justifiably, aren't on board. Professors aren't evaluated base upon how many skills they impart - though McCarthyists would prefer that model. Instead, they are refined experts in narrow areas, and they talk about abstract and obscure things that employers could give a damn less about.

Back to the thread; I think small privates are worth the money, and a student with a liberal arts degree from Bowdoin or Carlton is going to do far better than a Stony Brook grad from their nursing school. I admit, I don't have the numbers. Still, I'd hire the former.

 
Old 11-24-2010, 01:44 PM
 
929 posts, read 2,063,057 times
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Quote:
Back to the thread; I think small privates are worth the money, and a student with a liberal arts degree from Bowdoin or Carlton is going to do far better than a Stony Brook grad from their nursing school. I admit, I don't have the numbers. Still, I'd hire the former.
Let me ask you a better hypothetical question. Your going into surgery, would you rather your nurse be someone that graduated with top honors from SB Nursing school or someone who graduated with a degree in Art History from SB (or any other liberal arts degree)?

I fashion myself an economist, or at least a student of economics. I think you would be hard pressed to find an economist worth their salt that would consider themselves an artist over a scientist. Yes, economics is usually taught in the "Arts & Science" branch of the top schools, but so is biology. They are both usually considered soft sciences, and even that term isn't endearing to an economist.
 
Old 11-24-2010, 01:55 PM
 
Location: I'm gettin' there
2,666 posts, read 7,317,508 times
Reputation: 841
Top Schools = Influential Alumni/Peers/Friends 20 years down the line.

4 years of campus life will do that to you. Its not just about education.
BTW, I totally agree about non-Ivy schools providing quality education too.
 
Old 11-26-2010, 06:42 PM
 
25 posts, read 60,774 times
Reputation: 14
Default I went to Hofstra 10 years ago

I went to school at Hofstra 10 years ago when my oldest son was 9. He is now a sophmore in college. I grew up about 10 minutes from Hofstra & my parents still live there. I currently live about a 40 min. drive from Hofstra. I would not be concerned if my son decided to go to Hofstra. Yes, it is in Hempstead which is not a great area, but the location of the campus is really set apart from the shady areas. My concerns as a parent would be the same (especially having a daughter) as they would be if my child were to go to any college away from home. The expectations would be the same as for going out anywhere; staying in groups, not going anywhere with strange guys, staying away from drugs, etc. I would imagine the campus has some kind of security buses/safe rides to and from classes, etc. at night. I went there during the day as a commuter & it was 10 years ago. Also, places of interest such as shopping malls, movie theaters, etc. are all in pretty safe locations.

Not sure what all the negativity is about Hofstra on here. No, it may not be Ivy League but it is a really good school on a nice campus with a lot to offer. Hope that helped you some! Good luck to your daughter
 
Old 11-26-2010, 09:04 PM
 
456 posts, read 1,118,901 times
Reputation: 192
To answer your primary question- yes, Hofstra is perfectly safe. Even though Hofstra is technically in Hempstead, it is its own entity. Hofstra really seems like an extension of the nicer areas that surround it.

As far as the school itself, I could never see attending the school and paying what they are asking. The law school is not bad, but outside of that, you will be paying a lot of money for an education that is inferior to that available at many other private institutions.
 
Old 11-27-2010, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
16,408 posts, read 33,218,769 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDMBA View Post
To answer your primary question- yes, Hofstra is perfectly safe. Even though Hofstra is technically in Hempstead, it is its own entity. Hofstra really seems like an extension of the nicer areas that surround it.

As far as the school itself, I could never see attending the school and paying what they are asking. The law school is not bad, but outside of that, you will be paying a lot of money for an education that is inferior to that available at many other private institutions.
I agree that Hofstra is overpriced for what students get. As for the law school, it depends on what a student wants to do. If a student wants to be in private practice doing personal injury law, for example, Hofstra is okay. If a student wants to be in corporate BIGLAW, forget Hofstra as it is considered a joke and one of the "TTTs" (third tier toilet" school). There are far too many unemployed and underemployed Hofstra law grads out there to justify paying to go to that law school.
 
Old 11-28-2010, 01:10 PM
 
456 posts, read 1,118,901 times
Reputation: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but View Post
I agree that Hofstra is overpriced for what students get. As for the law school, it depends on what a student wants to do. If a student wants to be in private practice doing personal injury law, for example, Hofstra is okay. If a student wants to be in corporate BIGLAW, forget Hofstra as it is considered a joke and one of the "TTTs" (third tier toilet" school). There are far too many unemployed and underemployed Hofstra law grads out there to justify paying to go to that law school.
Many people who attend Hofstra know that they are going to join their family's practice. Hofstra law school fluctuates between second and third tier.

Realistically, the law school that an attorney attends doesn't matter much in the end. There are many highly respected attorneys who have attended third tier law schools. Lawyers don't typically discuss what law schools they have attended at bar function etc. Now, if the goal is to work for a top law firm, this is possible for a Hofstra grad, but the road is going to be much harder than for a NYC or Columbia law grad.
 
Old 11-28-2010, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
16,408 posts, read 33,218,769 times
Reputation: 7338
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDMBA View Post
Many people who attend Hofstra know that they are going to join their family's practice. Hofstra law school fluctuates between second and third tier.

Realistically, the law school that an attorney attends doesn't matter much in the end. There are many highly respected attorneys who have attended third tier law schools. Lawyers don't typically discuss what law schools they have attended at bar function etc. Now, if the goal is to work for a top law firm, this is possible for a Hofstra grad, but the road is going to be much harder than for a NYC or Columbia law grad.
I guess you don't spend much time with corporate lawyers from top firms because they are EXTREMELY "brand conscious" about law schools. To the point of silliness IMO because if you look at curriculum, it's not like Hofstra is deficient in what they actually teach. I am sure they are not.

It does not matter in the sense that if a person is an excellent lawyer they can create a great career for themselves and become experts on certain types of law, etc., regardless of where they graduated from.

However, if you want to be hired fresh out of law school by an AMLAW 100, where you graduated from is one of the most important factors they consider and Hofstra is not on the list they recruit from.

If you are already a partner somewhere with a booming book of business looking to lateral, then graduating from somewhere like Hofstra should not be a problem unless the firm is run by totally snobby people afraid to "taint" their branding.
 
Old 11-30-2010, 04:30 PM
 
456 posts, read 1,118,901 times
Reputation: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but View Post
I guess you don't spend much time with corporate lawyers from top firms because they are EXTREMELY "brand conscious" about law schools. To the point of silliness IMO because if you look at curriculum, it's not like Hofstra is deficient in what they actually teach. I am sure they are not.

It does not matter in the sense that if a person is an excellent lawyer they can create a great career for themselves and become experts on certain types of law, etc., regardless of where they graduated from.

However, if you want to be hired fresh out of law school by an AMLAW 100, where you graduated from is one of the most important factors they consider and Hofstra is not on the list they recruit from.

If you are already a partner somewhere with a booming book of business looking to lateral, then graduating from somewhere like Hofstra should not be a problem unless the firm is run by totally snobby people afraid to "taint" their branding.
I was hired by a "top" firm out of law school and I did not attend a top tier school- I chose the full scholarship instead from the second tier law school. But, I also had an MBA and experience working for a very respected financial firm. If you are able to distinguish yourself from the masses, then you will have opportunities available to you.

I have more experience with LI attorneys and on no one cares where you went to law school.
 
Old 12-01-2010, 10:28 AM
 
659 posts, read 2,510,250 times
Reputation: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDMBA View Post
I was hired by a "top" firm out of law school and I did not attend a top tier school- I chose the full scholarship instead from the second tier law school. But, I also had an MBA and experience working for a very respected financial firm. If you are able to distinguish yourself from the masses, then you will have opportunities available to you.

I have more experience with LI attorneys and on no one cares where you went to law school.

A good friend of mine works for a big law firm in NYC and she went to Hofstra Law school. Although it is not the best school, it is possible to get hired by a reputable firm. Although school plays a factor in getting hired, it is not the only factor. Having great grades, experience, and a wonderful interview can also open doors.

I am wary of people that generalize so much that no great law firm would hire from a third tier school. That is a very elementary view of black and white where hiring is a grey area.

I believe you! I have seen it happen.
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