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If you shut the buses down, you destroy Nassau's economy. NCC students wont be able to get to school (a vast majority of them use LI Bus), stores wont be able to get workers, many businesses will shut down. A vast amount of folks also come over from here from Queens to shop and use LIB. So bye bye tax revenue. Many ppl wont be able to get to work and lose their jobs and show up at the welfare office. And the rich snobs who hire the day laborers to clean their lawns wont be happy either when they'll have to mow their own lawn.
I got a newsflash for ya, the roads are clogged to capacity, and we dont have room for more cars. We need more buses and more people riding them. I see plenty of ppl who can afford lxury SUV's at 10mpg so a small increase in the gas tax could easily pay for LIB. Bus drivers have the responsibility of 40 or more people and deserve to paid well.
John, people adapt and new businesses emerge to replace the faulty ones. This could be a boon to cab drivers, livery cabs..even a private shuttle business could emerge. Private enterprise is a BEAUTIFUL thing when you give it a chance to flourish and keep govt out of their business (ie-TECH Sector)... Look at what's happened with computers, plasma/LCD tv's, cameras, camcorders, electronics, mobile phones, even plastic surgery (hint: all declined in cost over the last 30 years, why is that?).
I agree that they need to be paid well.. but so do the teachers, policemen, administrators, politicians & their staffs, parks employees, train conductors, janitors, monitors, sanitation crew, and the hundreds of thousands of other public servants that are required to have a defined benefit plan (ie-guaranteed pension at 8% growth). But the county simply does not have the money to pay for these costly public services and the giant pensions that come along with them. One bus driver probably has a $5 million price tag (if you factor in retirement in 20 years, juiced up pension for life, healthcare for life, OT, etc etc..). We've been living large and showering our public servants with extremely lucrative pay packages. We have to draw a line or we're going to end up having to cut services elsewhere.
I don't understand why is it car owners responsibility to pay for this bus service? After all, we pay enough in DMV fees, registration, insurance, gas, oil changes, repairs, tickets, surcharges, transfer taxes, inspections, "police fee" on my insurance bill...we get nickel & dimed from 100 different agencies that all NEED MORE MONEY. Even registration/license plate costs are through the roof (up to $150+ from $80 a few years ago). Enough already with the entitlement mentality. It is destroying this country. I don't buy the fear mongering that ending LI Bus will be the end of Nassau's economy. Don't underestimate private businesses coming in and replacing MTA at 1/5th of the cost of a unionized MTA crew.
What wasn't mentioned here is that Nassau County OWNS LI BUS. The MTA runs the system for the county and pays the majority of the cost to run it. It's not just the pensions that are causing the problem. Buses need maintenance, and all that's entailed to maintain them (garages,lots,spare parts, etc) cost lots of money. Just remember, if the MTA stopped subsidizing LI bus, there'd be NO buses running because like you said, "we can't afford it". This really isn't an MTA problem as you say...it's a Nassau County problem
thank you... i posted that link earlier and the op said he 'read' it which its obvious he didn't, because what you say is in the report... i didn't have the energy to copy pieces of the report... nassau county is dropping the ball, not the mta on this one...
What wasn't mentioned here is that Nassau County OWNS LI BUS. The MTA runs the system for the county and pays the majority of the cost to run it. It's not just the pensions that are causing the problem. Buses need maintenance, and all that's entailed to maintain them (garages,lots,spare parts, etc) cost lots of money. Just remember, if the MTA stopped subsidizing LI bus, there'd be NO buses running because like you said, "we can't afford it". This really isn't an MTA problem as you say...it's a Nassau County problem
I already know that we own a money-losing venture in LI Bus. What has that proved? Companies dissolve non-profitable segments of their business all the time. How is this any different? Cutting one to fund the others.
ENFD240: I read the report. NC subsidizes about 1/3rd with NYS, MTA & Riders subsidizing the other 2/3rds. So who is responsible then for the pensions of these drivers/maintenance crew/union reps etc?? Nassau County is running a $300 MILLION deficit from living the high life in the past and paying for current pensioners. You're right, it is a Nassau County problem, we do not have the money to fund it as stated (i'll quote myself) vvvvv
Quote:
Look at the chart below (fireman is used as an example, but substitute it with MTA bus driver) .... unless half of Nassau county residents are going to be MTA bus drivers, then taxpayers are unfortunately going to have to make up for the difference to pay the current pensioners and future retirees. We simply cannot afford it. We already have one of the highest Teacher & police pension burdens in the country to deal with, so we need to cutback our QOL somewhere to pay for our spending in the past.
Quote:
I agree that they need to be paid well.. but so do the teachers, policemen, administrators, politicians & their staffs, parks employees, train conductors, janitors, monitors, sanitation crew, and the hundreds of thousands of other public servants that are required to have a defined benefit plan (ie-guaranteed pension at 8% growth). But the county simply does not have the money to pay for these costly public services and the giant pensions that come along with them. One bus driver probably has a $5 million price tag (if you factor in retirement in 20 years, juiced up pension for life, healthcare for life, OT, etc etc..). We've been living large and showering our public servants with extremely lucrative pay packages. We have to draw a line or we're going to end up having to cut services elsewhere.
No crowded suburb in this nation lacks a public transportation system.
There's no excuse ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST COUNTIES IN THIS NATION cant afford a bus system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pequaman
John, people adapt and new businesses emerge to replace the faulty ones. This could be a boon to cab drivers, livery cabs..even a private shuttle business could emerge. Private enterprise is a BEAUTIFUL thing when you give it a chance to flourish and keep govt out of their business (ie-TECH Sector)... Look at what's happened with computers, plasma/LCD tv's, cameras, camcorders, electronics, mobile phones, even plastic surgery (hint: all declined in cost over the last 30 years, why is that?).
I agree that they need to be paid well.. but so do the teachers, policemen, administrators, politicians & their staffs, parks employees, train conductors, janitors, monitors, sanitation crew, and the hundreds of thousands of other public servants that are required to have a defined benefit plan (ie-guaranteed pension at 8% growth). But the county simply does not have the money to pay for these costly public services and the giant pensions that come along with them. One bus driver probably has a $5 million price tag (if you factor in retirement in 20 years, juiced up pension for life, healthcare for life, OT, etc etc..). We've been living large and showering our public servants with extremely lucrative pay packages. We have to draw a line or we're going to end up having to cut services elsewhere.
I don't understand why is it car owners responsibility to pay for this bus service? After all, we pay enough in DMV fees, registration, insurance, gas, oil changes, repairs, tickets, surcharges, transfer taxes, inspections, "police fee" on my insurance bill...we get nickel & dimed from 100 different agencies that all NEED MORE MONEY. Even registration/license plate costs are through the roof (up to $150+ from $80 a few years ago). Enough already with the entitlement mentality. It is destroying this country. I don't buy the fear mongering that ending LI Bus will be the end of Nassau's economy. Don't underestimate private businesses coming in and replacing MTA at 1/5th of the cost of a unionized MTA crew.
Nassau county is already taking on most of the cost with its ~$10 million subsidy and guaranteeing all those pensions/free health care for life/ and Overtime for current and retired MTA workers. Forget that! Nassau shouldn't even be laying out the $10 million, yet Jay Walder and the MTA want to TRIPLE our responsibility towards it?? (To over $30 MILLION!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pequaman
ENFD240: I read the report. NC subsidizes about 1/3rd with NYS, MTA & Riders subsidizing the other 2/3rds. So who is responsible then for the pensions of these drivers/maintenance crew/union reps etc?? Nassau County is running a $300 MILLION deficit from living the high life in the past and paying for current pensioners. You're right, it is a Nassau County problem, we do not have the money to fund it as stated (i'll quote myself)
No crowded suburb in this nation lacks a public transportation system.
There's no excuse ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST COUNTIES IN THIS NATION cant afford a bus system.
That's one problem right there John.. we don't tax wealth ..
Instead we tax private businesses like Sizzler to death to the point where they have to exit operations on LI. Where does all the tax money go? Did the new MTA tax push Sizzler over the edge? Did we ever stop to think about where is all this tax money going to? Look to the unions, that is the giant vampire squid that is sucking the life out of everyone in the country. Those 352 firefighters (which are mostly substituted by taxpayers) at the bottom of the pyramid are screwed and don't even realize it.
John, believe me, this county ain't doing as hot as you think it is. I see people barely getting by as a result of the 100% property/school tax increases these last 7 years. The worst thing is how taxes never seem to deflate. I think you can look at the defined benefit plan (defined compensation plan) as to the major reason TAXES NEVER SEEM TO GO DOWN.
fyi- I never dined at Sizzler, but I know you were fond of it.
ps- The wealth is a facade. We were wealthy. "Wealthy" entities do not run massive deficits like we are running. We are not even solvent if you factor in unfunded pension liabilities =O
I didn't think this would be that hard to grasp...
eg- GM owned divisions that were 'money losers', such as Oldsmobile & Saturn. They dissolved those segments of their business. I'll try one more time: we do not have the money to fund it.
Why don't we focus on who benefits most from it. Queens, Brooklyn and the MTA benefit more than Nassau County does. You could even make a case as JIW pointed out, that day laborers benefit more from it than NC taxpayers do.
Long Island is running huge deficits and we simply cannot afford to pay off the MTA bus drivers any longer. We have to cut back on public services due to the excessive pensions, OT and health care benefits from all of the public services we receive and those from the last 40 years. I refuse layout 1 more dollar for any union involved system from here on out. IF people want to use LI bus, it should be kept alive through raising bus fares, not through taxpayer subsidies. Nassau county is already taking on most of the cost with its ~$10 million subsidy and guaranteeing all those pensions/free health care for life/ and Overtime for current and retired MTA workers. Forget that! Nassau shouldn't even be laying out the $10 million, yet Jay Walder and the MTA want to TRIPLE our responsibility towards it?? (To over $30 MILLION!) HELL NO! SHUT IT DOWN!
Look at the chart below (fireman is used as an example, but substitute it with MTA bus driver) .... unless half of Nassau county residents are going to be MTA bus drivers, then taxpayers are unfortunately going to have to make up for the difference to pay the current pensioners and future retirees. We simply cannot afford it. We already have one of the highest Teacher & police pension burdens in the country to deal with, so we need to cutback our QOL somewhere to pay for our spending in the past.
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This is the first time I agree with you 100%! Nassau doesn't need the burden.
I voted for "Option C", but I can't really get behind any of them 100%
I think a lot of government services could and should be privatized, but public transportation will always have to be at least partially subsidized by taxpayer money no matter how efficiently they operate or how little their employees are paid. I might be slightly off on this, but I remember reading somewhere that the only mass transit system on the planet that operates solely on it's own revenue is the Tokyo Subway....ONE out of hundreds of thousands worldwide. So with that in mind, I doubt it would be possible to find private investors willing to commit to something like this and able to make it work. Even if there was some kind of arrangement where a private company actually ran the service but was allocated tax funds, I doubt there would be enough margin of profit to make it worth their while.
Shut it down? No way. I can't imagine the world crumbling around us like Johninwestbury describes were that to happen (people would start stealing cars cuz they couldn't ride the bus?? hahahaha.....OK), but the service it provides is a more worthy "good" than defeating the "evil" of it's ludicrous operating cost would be, IMO. John does make a valid point, however, that by keeping more cars off the road it's benefiting the county as a whole, and not just the small segment of population that legitimately depends on it as their sole means of transportation. Of course, the amount of traffic congestion it's preventing is minimal when compared to NYC Transit or even the LIRR, but I believe that LI Bus ridership is high enough that it would make an immediate and noticeable difference were it shut down, especially in western Nassau.
I also agree that one of the primary reasons why bus service in Nassau is underutilized is because the schedules and routes are in dire need of a redesign. Most lines do stop at LIRR stations, but rarely if ever arrive any time close to when a train does. For about a week or two earlier this year my car was out of commission and I had to get to Freeport a couple of days a week for work. The process of taking the bus to the train to another bus itself was actually kind of pleasant. Fresh air, exercise, etc.....but it turned a 10 minute drive into a hour and a half journey! There was a 20-30 minute layover between transfers at each point and the buses were never once on time. Either very late or very early.....and if you miss one your options are A) wait an hour or B) do a lot of walking. I ended up taking a cab ($50 a day) more often than not. I've gotta believe that with even just some minor tweaks, the MTA could be covering a decent portion of their budget. There are so many LIRR stations where parking is a major issue. A lot of people who commute from those are already walking further from their car to the station than they would be from their home to the local bus stop....but that's not an option for them because the schedules don't work. It's mind boggling that this is somehow an untapped source of revenue.
On the other side of this whole thing, YES - like every other arm of the MTA, and for that matter essentially every government agency in New York State, LI Bus is a major fiscal disaster. Although the cost is still relatively small compared to other, more well publicized cases, it is still very real and very negative for the residents of Nassau County. I know certain people like to tout Virginia as a model for how New York should do everything, so let's take a look at how a similar suburban public bus company manages to not squeeze it's service area dry down in the Commonwealth.
Here are some very basic 2009 accounting charts for both MTA Long Island Bus and Hampton Roads Transit. I know literally nothing about HRT and little about the area it serves, but on paper it is essentially identical in size, structure and scope of service. Daily ridership, rolling stock, population served, miles traveled, service hours and number of routes are all within 10% of LI Bus. The big differences that jump out at you are, of course, OPERATING EXPENSES - which are broken down into 4 categories. For our purposes, we can just think of them as two, since categories 2-4 ("Materials & Supplies", "Purchased Transportation", & "Other Operating Expenses") are all similar and deal with non-human costs, whereas category 1 covers "Salary, Wages & Benefits".
Here is the Reader's Digest breakdown:
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TOTAL OPERATING EXPENSES:
-LI BUS: $128,525,707 (100%)
-HRT: $74,479,805 (100%)
I think that pretty much speaks for itself. Maintenance costs? Pfft...a mere 20% of the budget, and $5 million less than a comparably sized system in Virginia. Purchasing new vehicles? LI Bus spent $0 on them in 2009. Redundant, overpaid administrative positions? Sure....they're part of the problem, but when we're talking about $102 million dollars a year it puts in perspective how much more bloat is out there than a handful of six-figure pencil pushers. You can talk about what people "deserve", what you think "is fair" and "tough jobs" or "agendas" all day, but if you think your taxes are unreasonably high and would like that to change, then looking at something like this (and the breakdown is the same for all other government agencies) should really drive home where the problem is and what is needed to fix it. This is the bottom line, beyond all the sentimental BS and emotions and opinions: You can't pay people Don Draper money for doing Ralph Kramden jobs.
So I don't think it would be good for Nassau to lose bus service, and I doubt that will happen, but the "alternative" is just as unappealing. The only good that can come out of this is hopefully making people sit up and take notice, and realize that Long Island is slowly sinking into it's own black hole bottomless pit of taxes. We're only at the expensive part right now....and that's bad, but things only get worse from here. Once it truly gets ugly, it'll be too late to turn back. Look at the systematic deterioration of any American metropolitan area and it comes back to the same thing, 9 times out of 10.
I didn't think this would be that hard to grasp...
eg- GM owned divisions that were 'money losers', such as Oldsmobile & Saturn. They dissolved those segments of their business. I'll try one more time: we do not have the money to fund it.
Why don't we focus on who benefits most from it. Queens, Brooklyn and the MTA benefit more than Nassau County does. You could even make a case as JIW pointed out, that day laborers benefit more from it than NC taxpayers do.
oh no, i have no problem grasping that nassau can't afford it.. never said they could. but neither can the mta, who you came out wildly swinging at...
i'm lol'ing at the inconsistency in your blame and your "facts". first nassau was 'taking on most of the cost', then you say "NC subsidizes about 1/3rd" when in reality (and as stated in the report) it's 10 percent...
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