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I understand the concept of having a salary commensaurate with one's experience. At some point, when does one reach the summit?
If one is a 15 year Kindergarden teacher in a district with a 1/2 day program (teaching 2 classes to equal a full day) is s/he the equivalent of the 15 year HS science teacher who instructs AP classes?
Looking at the steps and contractual raises -- if they both came on at the same time, both continued earning the necessary credits in order to gain experience in their respective licensing -- should they both be paid the same? Cutting out shapes and identifying basic sight words hardly seems on the same level as AP Chem, yet both teachers may very well be paid the same.
Unions arent the problem, theyre just no longer the solution.
Crooks
Unions are now a BIG BUSINESS of their own, complete with greedy power hungry leaders who only care about their comp, their perks, their political connections, and getting as many members as they can because it means more dues.
Do you think it was really an ACCIDENT that the Mafia meshed so well with union labor and took over many of them? No, because Mafia tactics are how they roll.
When they are pitted against private industry, at least they are FORCED to accept some sort of reality in terms of what the private business makes in profit.
When they are unleashed on the taxpayers, there is no such restraint by needing to make a profit. If they had any INTEGRITY they would take into account their demands vs. the needs and ability to pay of the taxpayers. Of course they have not and now the chickens are coming home to roost.
Public sector unions should be illegal. They have proven themselves time and time again to be nothing but marauders and people who don't play fair politically whose main purpose is to find ways to take advantage of the taxpayers.
You do realize that the best years in this country followed the Progressive era and the big government deficit spending following WWII, right?
You don't just get to claim that insisting on a livable wage hurts people. First of all, it is counterintuitive. Second of all, there's nothing that supports that except studies pumped out of George Mason University - funded by the David Koch chair of "Make-Stuff-Up."
If you are just going to make stuff up you'd better do it in another forum because I'm going to respond each time. Support your claims, and not with references to Beck or Limbaugh.
Speaking of "Make-Stuff-Up" and not supporting claims . . .
For the third time:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadPool1998
The reason taxpayers have to sacrifice is because good schools cost more than bad schools.
Please explain to the people of Hempstead how good the schools are and what a bargain they are getting for their property taxes:
Very Low Priced Homes:
HEMPSTEAD, NY 11550 Taxes: $8,934 Village Taxes: $4,582.48 List Price: $94,500
HEMPSTEAD, NY 11550 Taxes: $8,500 List Price: $99,000
More Expensive Homes:
HEMPSTEAD, NY 11550 Taxes: $12,700 List Price: $325,000
HEMPSTEAD, NY 11550 Taxes: $11,000 List Price: $399,000
HEMPSTEAD, NY 11550 Taxes: $16,100 List Price: $399,000
HEMPSTEAD, NY 11550 Taxes: $12,000 List Price: $440,000
HEMPSTEAD, NY 11550 Taxes: $12,625 Village Taxes: $8,375.72 List Price: $443,000
Most Expensive Homes:
HEMPSTEAD, NY 11550 Taxes: $10,029 Village Taxes: $6,977.00 List Price: $515,000
HEMPSTEAD, NY 11550 Taxes: $11,895 Village Taxes: $9,177.00 List Price: $534,999
HEMPSTEAD, NY 11550 Taxes: $10,683 Village Taxes: $7,714.00 List Price: $599,000
HEMPSTEAD, NY 11550 Taxes: $18,201 List Price: $775,000
Last edited by I_Love_LI_but; 02-18-2011 at 08:58 AM..
Reason: Had to match the title
I agree with you. Those people who haven't been fired still have their jobs because they have some combination of skill/experience that far outweighs their higher salary. A legal counsel that has 20 years of virtual copyright law experience could probably justify a salary higher then a 3L coming straight out of Hofstra Law. However, I think the output/skills/experience between a 3rd year teacher and a 30 year teacher are pretty comparable, and you would probably see a lot of "trimming of the fat."
Somehow I can't agree with that. Thirty years should count for a lot more than three for teachers too. Just the life experience alone means a lot. Not everyone who has a long career is "coasting along" and that includes teachers. If there were no tenure, I would not be a person screaming at the school board to get rid of all of the most experienced teachers.
Probably the things that are hurting taxpayers the most anyway are too many too highly paid superintendants and administrators, the unrealistic pension funding burden, and the benefits which are too lopsided in terms of school personnel contributing too little, and the guaranteed step raises and merit raises which do not take the state of the economy into consideration.
Unions are now a BIG BUSINESS of their own, complete with greedy power hungry leaders who only care about their comp, their perks, their political connections, and getting as many members as they can because it means more dues.
Do you think it was really an ACCIDENT that the Mafia meshed so well with union labor and took over many of them? No, because Mafia tactics are how they roll.
When they are pitted against private industry, at least they are FORCED to accept some sort of reality in terms of what the private business makes in profit.
When they are unleashed on the taxpayers, there is no such restraint by needing to make a profit. If they had any INTEGRITY they would take into account their demands vs. the needs and ability to pay of the taxpayers. Of course they have not and now the chickens are coming home to roost.
Public sector unions should be illegal. They have proven themselves time and time again to be nothing but marauders and people who don't play fair politically whose main purpose is to find ways to take advantage of the taxpayers.
The bottom line is public schools should be about the KIDS, not the employees
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhBeeHave
I understand the concept of having a salary commensaurate with one's experience. At some point, when does one reach the summit?
If one is a 15 year Kindergarden teacher in a district with a 1/2 day program (teaching 2 classes to equal a full day) is s/he the equivalent of the 15 year HS science teacher who instructs AP classes?
Looking at the steps and contractual raises -- if they both came on at the same time, both continued earning the necessary credits in order to gain experience in their respective licensing -- should they both be paid the same? Cutting out shapes and identifying basic sight words hardly seems on the same level as AP Chem, yet both teachers may very well be paid the same.
This is exactly the way the unions do things. Because to them, the schools are to GIVE JOBS TO THE UNION EMPLOYEES. That is their main concern. It doesn't matter WHAT their members actually teach.
The core belief of unions is that all teachers are equal and that is reflected in a collective bargaining agreement. There is no incentive for innovation or hard work.
When the auto assembly line model was brought into American public schools, it was an achievement of efficiency, but it has now produced its consequences. Organized labor, too, has made its mark in creating a one-size-fits-all way for treating and compensating teachers.
What if your value to your employer was decided by the sum of the last four digits of your social security number? Or you win state-wide recognition for your teaching achievement, only to be fired the next day because someone else had been there longer. It happens in American public schools every year. Do tenure and seniority benefit students and their success?
Union leaders fight for control to represent the interests of adults as students and parents are left behind.
A union should want power. Without power it has less influence.
A union should want its leaders well compensated. You want to attract the best people to lead - just like a CEO.
A union should want to provide good perks to leadership. You want to attract the best people to lead - just like in corporate America.
A union should want its leaders to be politically connected. These connections help them to influence the system on the behalf of union members.
A union should want more members. With more members, there is more power.
Can someone point to the Chamber of Commerce that gets criticized for pursuing more members and political influence?
In an ideal world it would be done with integrity.
Unfortunately, we all have flaws and the union model, with its long history of Mafia control, has not turned out to live up to your idealistic view of it.
Now that we have comprehensive employment laws, unions have served their purpose for the most part in the private sector.
They never should have been allowed in the public sector.
PS: As for the Chamber of Commerce, I regularly criticize them for their political lobbyist butt kissing of illegal alien labor and their being against e-verify. I am not the only one who has noticed this.
Wisconsin is dealing with Democrats going into hiding to avoid the vote on the union bill. Teachers protested by not showing up and having walkouts. Is this going to happen on Long Island, or would this just start happening in New York and not affect Long Island?
Here are some ideas. I'm not a policy professional, and I'm sure people are going to hate these ideas. Still, I think they are fair.
First, market norms for pensions and benefits, I think, should be applied. People should have to invest for their pensions. This should be true across the board, up and down the ladder -- governor to street sweep.
Second, I'd cap all classes at 20 students.
Third, I'd have a social worker in each school.
Fourth, I'd have each district create its own public performance review process. It would be co-created by administration and the teachers. This would allow poor performing teachers to be bounced.
Fifth, I'd end property taxes and local sales taxes and institute a district-wide income tax. Richer districts would pay a surcharge to help level out per pupil spending statewide.
Sixth, I'd tie annual teacher pay increases funded by district income tax to being no greater than district-wide wealth creation. So, if a community's income increase 1.2%, teachers could earn no greater than a 1.2% raise. If wealth jumped 10%, they COULD - though wouldn't necessarily - earn a 10% raise. This would be adjusted by district with subsidies for balancing per pupil expenses. As such, it is conceivable that a poor district could earn LARGER salary increases than a poorer district.
Seventh, any local shortfalls would be paid for by the state. State shortfalls would be paid for by taxing investment transactions on Wall Street.
Eighth, I'd offer lump-sum buyouts from the state pension system.
I should give you a compliment on this post. We don't have to argue all the time.
A few of your ideas here are quite reasonable, especially the parts about pensions and raises.
Wisconsin is dealing with Democrats going into hiding to avoid the vote on the union bill. Teachers protested by not showing up and having walkouts. Is this going to happen on Long Island, or would this just start happening in New York and not affect Long Island?
It depends on whether Cuomo gets as tough on this subject as WI's governor is.
It depends on how the union members feel about what happens.
It depends how weaselly our politicians would behave faced with a situation like this.
I can't believe the WI dems are slinking out of town because they don't want to vote! Come on! Now that right there SHOWS there is something VERY wrong with too much public sector union influence on politicians. They have been stacking the deck in their favor for decades against the taxpayers. FIFTY YEARS of public sector union influence in that state and look at what it has wrought. Public sector unions should be illegal.
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And why do you just get to make stuff up.
