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Old 05-09-2011, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Massapequa Park
3,172 posts, read 6,731,866 times
Reputation: 1374

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan505 View Post
I can't help but feel a little disturbed at the hypocrisy of some people, especially right-leaning "fiscal conservatives" who have no problem with public money being used to help the rich, but completely freak out if a dime of that money is used to help regular, middle-income or lower-income people.

Yes, LI Bus is subsidized with public money. That's the point. That's why it's called PUBLIC transportation. It's a PUBLIC service for people who either cannot drive, cannot afford to drive or choose to use the bus to get to the LIRR or a subway (that's me). My right-leaning friends will scream until they're blue in the face that the taxpayers shouldn't have to subsidize a bus that they don't use.

Well, here's the thing; we're taxpayers too. We work and pay taxes just like you do. And some of our tax dollars are used to subsidize the automobile companies and oil companies that you depend on for your priviate automobilies. So if limited, fiscally-responsible government is what you so strongly believe in, let's get rid of these subsidizes as well and make people pay $20 a gallon for gas and the real cost of their car.

After all, I'm a taxpayer and I don't want to fund something I don't use either!
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but View Post
Welcome to C-D! You hqve a point. What would it cost to run private automobiles if we weren't subsidizing auto and oil companies, conservatives out there?
The above is false.
I don't like to label myself like others do, but I probably lean conservative.

#1, gasoline taxes are $0.66/gallon avg in NY, or about $10 per fill up. The average NY driver pays about $500/yr in gasoline taxes, split between Federal (18.4 cents/gal, & State & County getting the rest). These pay for the roads and maintenance involved with them and for stuff like subsidies to big oil, among other things.

The biggest of the big 4 oil companies, Exxon-Mobil paid $21.5 Billion in taxes for fiscal 2010. The federal subsidies are a fraction of the amount big oil pays in taxes. While I in no way support the big oil monopoly, remember that they pull in a lot of revenue for Uncle Sam; and that a lot of this much needed revenue is derived from overseas. Remember when gas was $1 a gallon, Exxon and Mobil were separate companies..they were allowed to monopolize in the late 90's under Clinton admin. I respect Clinton, but that may have been a costly mistake.

Only about 1 in 30 (search this thread for math on this) people in Nassau County use LI Bus. Nassau County pay $10M directly towards it, and we pay millions more paid through various methods described earlier in this thread (Drivers license, registrations, cell phones, $100M toward MTA payroll tax). Yet we're about to see the cost go up to $35 Million (about $90 extra per household in Nassau) for a service that almost no one here uses. We shouldn't have to pay 3.5x more to subsidize NYC transit, and at the same time receive 50% less service. The MTA needs to get its OT abuse in check and stop shiiting on Nassau County for the benefit the city.
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Old 05-09-2011, 06:21 PM
 
3,852 posts, read 4,505,361 times
Reputation: 4516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pequaman View Post
The above is false.
I don't like to label myself like others do, but I probably lean conservative.

#1, gasoline taxes are $0.66/gallon avg in NY, or about $10 per fill up. The average NY driver pays about $500/yr in gasoline taxes, split between Federal (18.4 cents/gal, & State & County getting the rest). These pay for the roads and maintenance involved with them and for stuff like subsidies to big oil, among other things.
Clearly you didn't read my link earlier. Gas taxes don't pay for anywhere near the costs of roads, and never have.
Quote:
The biggest of the big 4 oil companies, Exxon-Mobil paid $21.5 Billion in taxes for fiscal 2010.
Not sure where you got these numbers. Exxon-Mobil paid lots of taxes last year, but very little went to the United States government:
Quote:
Exxon paid the most taxes last year of any U.S. company, by far -- but not a cent went to the IRS for income taxes. That's because the oil giant does business in some of the mostly highly taxed countries in the world. Want to extract petroleum in Nigeria? Be prepared to fork over up to 85% of your profit in tax payments.

Exxon doled out more than $15 billion in income tax payments to foreign countries last year. U.S. tax codes allow companies to take massive deductions in light of those international charges, which knocked Exxon's federal income-tax bill down into negative territory.
Quote:
The federal subsidies are a fraction of the amount big oil pays in taxes. While I in no way support the big oil monopoly, remember that they pull in a lot of revenue for Uncle Sam; and that a lot of this much needed revenue is derived from overseas. Remember when gas was $1 a gallon, Exxon and Mobil were separate companies..they were allowed to monopolize in the late 90's under Clinton admin. I respect Clinton, but that may have been a costly mistake.
Federal subsidies are not needed. Oil companies are among the most profitable companies in the world and don't need government charity, especially when they are paying taxes abroad and using those to offset paying taxes in the US. Meanwhile, our money is being siphoned out of the country to pay foreign governments for their oil.
Quote:
Only about 1 in 30 (search this thread for math on this) people in Nassau County use LI Bus. Nassau County pay $10M directly towards it, and we pay millions more paid through various methods described earlier in this thread (Drivers license, registrations, cell phones, $100M toward MTA payroll tax). Yet we're about to see the cost go up to $35 Million (about $90 extra per household in Nassau) for a service that almost no one here uses. We shouldn't have to pay 3.5x more to subsidize NYC transit, and at the same time receive 50% less service. The MTA needs to get its OT abuse in check and stop shiiting on Nassau County for the benefit the city.
It's a public service that provides benefits to all Long Islanders regardless of whether they use the bus. It provides businesses with workers who otherwise couldn't get to work. It keeps thousands of cars off the already crowded streets and reduces the amount of oil we use. It provides mobility to those who can't drive, which includes the poor but also the old, the young, the disabled, and those who are not permitted to drive for whatever reason. We can reform the OT situation without disbanding public transport or turning it over to a private corporation, whose only solution will be to cut services, pay the drivers less, and pay the executives far more.
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Old 05-09-2011, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Massapequa Park
3,172 posts, read 6,731,866 times
Reputation: 1374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interlude View Post
Clearly you didn't read my link earlier. Gas taxes don't pay for anywhere near the costs of roads, and never have.Not sure where you got these numbers. Exxon-Mobil paid lots of taxes last year, but very little went to the United States government:Federal subsidies are not needed. Oil companies are among the most profitable companies in the world and don't need government charity, especially when they are paying taxes abroad and using those to offset paying taxes in the US. Meanwhile, our money is being siphoned out of the country to pay foreign governments for their oil.It's a public service that provides benefits to all Long Islanders regardless of whether they use the bus. It provides businesses with workers who otherwise couldn't get to work. It keeps thousands of cars off the already crowded streets and reduces the amount of oil we use. It provides mobility to those who can't drive, which includes the poor but also the old, the young, the disabled, and those who are not permitted to drive for whatever reason. We can reform the OT situation without disbanding public transport or turning it over to a private corporation, whose only solution will be to cut services, pay the drivers less, and pay the executives far more.
I like how you left out:
Quote:
That said, Uncle Sam gets his money in other ways. Including sales taxes and duties, Exxon recorded $7.7 billion in U.S. tax costs last year, and paid even more overseas.

Its grand total in global taxes for the year? A whopping $78.6 billion. The company's effective income tax rate was a hefty 47%, its highest in three years.
And taxes on dividends, employee payroll taxes for hundreds of thousands of employees in the US, and other state & city taxes.

I skimmed your link and found nothing to disprove that the average driver in NY pays over $500 a year in gas taxes...most of that going to the state and county to cover road costs, and then some. Tell me in your own words why this is false? How much do bus riders pay for the roads?
No one said to disband LI Bus...find a new operator that doesn't cost so much. With that said, where are you from Interlude? You seem to like to take TOS shots at other people and areas on LI, yet keep your location private.
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Old 05-09-2011, 07:00 PM
 
3,852 posts, read 4,505,361 times
Reputation: 4516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pequaman View Post
I like how you left out:

And taxes on dividends, employee payroll taxes for hundreds of thousands of employees in the US, and other state & city taxes.
Exxon paid a whopping $78 billion in taxes worldwide and used that to offset its US income tax load so that they ended up "paying" NEGATIVE US income taxes. To extract oil in Nigeria they apparently had to pay 85% back to the government and yet it's obviously still profitable to do so. I'm not suggesting that Exxon should go out of business, obviously their existence provides jobs and some income to the US, but the question was about subsidies. How can you justify giving them ANY subsidies whatsoever when they are cheating the US out of $78 billion (or thereabouts) in income taxes?
Quote:
I skimmed your link and found nothing to disprove that the average driver in NY pays over $500 a year in gas taxes...most of that going to the state and county to cover road costs, and then some. Tell me in your own words why this is false? How much do bus riders pay for the roads?
Where are you getting that $500 a year number? Gas taxes in NY average $.65 per gallon (could be as low as $.45 per gallon (http://washingtonexaminer.com/local/virginia/2011/01/gas-tax-holds-line-roads-crumble - broken link), not sure which source is more reliable). 12,000 miles per year at 22 miles per gallon = 545 gallons = $354 per year in taxes. Whatever the cost, my link indicated that these taxes are insufficient to pay for roads. In addition, local roads, as opposed to highways, are paid for using property taxes, not gas taxes.
Quote:
No one said to disband LI Bus...find a new operator that doesn't cost so much. With that said, where are you from Interlude? You seem to like to take TOS shots at other people and areas on LI, yet keep your location private.
It's harder for the government to regulate a private company than a public company. And as I and someone else said earlier, a private company is just going to slash services, raise rates, and probably pay their executives as much as the MTA was paying in fraudulent overtime.

My location is none of your business.
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Old 05-09-2011, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Massapequa Park
3,172 posts, read 6,731,866 times
Reputation: 1374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interlude View Post
Exxon paid a whopping $78 billion in taxes worldwide and used that to offset its US income tax load so that they ended up "paying" NEGATIVE US income taxes. To extract oil in Nigeria they apparently had to pay 85% back to the government and yet it's obviously still profitable to do so. I'm not suggesting that Exxon should go out of business, obviously their existence provides jobs and some income to the US, but the question was about subsidies. How can you justify giving them ANY subsidies whatsoever when they are cheating the US out of $78 billion (or thereabouts) in income taxes?
No one's cheating anyone, they're taking a deduction for an expense the same way you or I would take. Otherwise then they'd be getting taxed on phantom profits that don't exist. Maybe we should pull the subsidies, that's not a bad idea. The US needs the money and can't afford to subsidize the obviously healthy oil monopolies which Clinton helped create. Who's fault is this the big oil is taking advantage of tax law?? Your party, the left?, had total control of everything for 2 years. Why didn't they "change" any of this?? Wheres the change.

Quote:
Where are you getting that $500 a year number? Gas taxes in NY average $.65 per gallon (could be as low as $.45 per gallon (http://washingtonexaminer.com/local/virginia/2011/01/gas-tax-holds-line-roads-crumble - broken link), not sure which source is more reliable). 12,000 miles per year at 22 miles per gallon = 545 gallons = $354 per year in taxes. Whatever the cost, my link indicated that these taxes are insufficient to pay for roads. In addition, local roads, as opposed to highways, are paid for using property taxes, not gas taxes.
Nassau County gas taxes currently include: $.18 per gallon for federal tax, $.32 per gallon for New York State tax and 4.25% per dollar (or approx $.17 per gallon) for Nassau County tax. $.67 per gallon of gas @ $4/gallon, and even more as the base price of gasoline continues to rise. On a 15 gallon tank, which is about average, a driver spends $10 or more every time he or she fills up. For a 2-car household, that’s over $20 per week, or about $1040 a year, or ~$500 a driver, which is how we come up with $500. We're talking about Nassau county and LI Bus and the roads here, not anywhere else.

If there are 1 million drivers in Nassau County (est), that is about $500 Million a year in gas taxes spread between Federal, State & County. This more than covers road costs. Tax money is fungible, but the gas taxes were meant to go towards roads. And we do pay for them through property taxes as well. If they're not going towards roads as you claim, then what are drivers subsidizing??

Quote:
It's harder for the government to regulate a private company than a public company. And as I and someone else said earlier, a private company is just going to slash services, raise rates, and probably pay their executives as much as the MTA was paying in fraudulent overtime.
I highly doubt it could be more wasteful than the MTA. Only way to find out is go private.

Quote:
My location is none of your business.
Well then don't take low-blows at other communities and expect respect or conversation from people in those communities, if you're afraid to disclose your own.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:55 PM
 
3,852 posts, read 4,505,361 times
Reputation: 4516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pequaman View Post
No one's cheating anyone, they're taking a deduction for an expense the same way you or I would take. Otherwise then they'd be getting taxed on phantom profits that don't exist.
Semantics. Because the law is broken doesn't mean it's right. The tax code needs to be changed to account for situations like this.
Quote:
Maybe we should pull the subsidies, that's not a bad idea. The US needs the money and can't afford to subsidize the obviously healthy oil monopolies which Clinton helped create. Who's fault is this the big oil is taking advantage of tax law?? Your party, the left?, had total control of everything for 2 years. Why didn't they "change" any of this?? Wheres the change.
Calling the Democratic party "left" is a joke. There is no left in power in America. I can name half a dozen Republican congressmen who are quite literally fascists and exactly one who is a socialist of any sort, and then only in the weak sense.

Quote:
Nassau County gas taxes currently include: $.18 per gallon for federal tax, $.32 per gallon for New York State tax and 4.25% per dollar (or approx $.17 per gallon) for Nassau County tax. $.67 per gallon of gas @ $4/gallon, and even more as the base price of gasoline continues to rise. On a 15 gallon tank, which is about average, a driver spends $10 or more every time he or she fills up. For a 2-car household, that’s over $20 per week, or about $1040 a year, or ~$500 a driver, which is how we come up with $500. We're talking about Nassau county and LI Bus and the roads here, not anywhere else.
You appear to be using the same numbers - $.65 per gallon on average for taxes - so you're just assuming too much driving. According to your numbers the average person drives over 17k miles per year which isn't true. Average is 12k.

Of that, a full third is going to the feds and redistributed nationwide, primarily for the interstate system. Same with the state taxes, although a portion comes back to fund state road projects (Northern State Parkway, etc.). Local roads are maintained by the towns and villages etc. and paid for out of property taxes, not gas taxes. If you don't believe me, drive through Garden City and then onto any road connected to it and see how the quality drops.

Quote:
If there are 1 million drivers in Nassau County (est), that is about $500 Million a year in gas taxes spread between Federal, State & County. This more than covers road costs. Tax money is fungible, but the gas taxes were meant to go towards roads. And we do pay for them through property taxes as well. If they're not going towards roads as you claim, then what are drivers subsidizing??
Except the evidence I provided shows that they don't cover the costs. If you have something else to show me by all means...
Quote:
I highly doubt it could be more wasteful than the MTA. Only way to find out is go private.
What if it's equally wasteful, except now we have less bus routes, the fares are higher, and the drivers are making less money with the CEO making more? Have we achieved anything good?
Quote:
Well then don't take low-blows at other communities and expect respect or conversation from people in those communities, if you're afraid to disclose your own.
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Old 05-09-2011, 10:50 PM
 
Location: Massapequa Park
3,172 posts, read 6,731,866 times
Reputation: 1374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interlude View Post
Semantics. Because the law is broken doesn't mean it's right. The tax code needs to be changed to account for situations like this.Calling the Democratic party "left" is a joke. There is no left in power in America. I can name half a dozen Republican congressmen who are quite literally fascists and exactly one who is a socialist of any sort, and then only in the weak sense.

You appear to be using the same numbers - $.65 per gallon on average for taxes - so you're just assuming too much driving. According to your numbers the average person drives over 17k miles per year which isn't true. Average is 12k.

Of that, a full third is going to the feds and redistributed nationwide, primarily for the interstate system. Same with the state taxes, although a portion comes back to fund state road projects (Northern State Parkway, etc.). Local roads are maintained by the towns and villages etc. and paid for out of property taxes, not gas taxes. If you don't believe me, drive through Garden City and then onto any road connected to it and see how the quality drops.

Except the evidence I provided shows that they don't cover the costs. If you have something else to show me by all means...What if it's equally wasteful, except now we have less bus routes, the fares are higher, and the drivers are making less money with the CEO making more? Have we achieved anything good?
Well if you don't care, then I'm going to assume you live in Hempstead. I could understand why you want to see the county pony up $35M for LIBS because it benefits you more than the rest of the county.

Now on the math: from Average Annual Miles per Driver by Age Group
avg miles/yr= 13,476 / 20 mpg = 674 gallons [avg mpg is 20, not 22... 22 is cars, 18 for trucks/suv/vans]
674 * .67 = ~$450 (prob $500 considering LI idle gas waste), again about one fill up per week.

The number is high and it's $450 more than non-drivers pay.

The county does charge for roads, as does each Town. But the majority of it is paid for through collection of these taxes. Are you really going to try to convince me that tax money from gas taxes going to the county general fund is different than tax money used for roads? It's all green. And this money, along with sales taxes, are then filtered to the various Towns within the county. Which are then used for roads or to balance budgets. It's not uncommon for the County & Towns to share expenses when doing major road-work, including use of federal or state aid where applicable.
Villages are a different issue, however they too receive aid from the county for general purposes; derived from sales tax revenue and gas tax revenue collected by the county and a portion passed along. Remember that most of the roads are maintained by the County & Town.

Garden City roads are very nice..have you ever driven through them when it snows?? Notice a difference in plowing and salt usage? That will help explain quality difference.

Going private will be a lot cheaper than what the MTA is looking for. Suffolk Transit runs at $24M cost to taxpayers; and they have 3x the land area to cover with much lower ridership. With economies of scale and not having to deal with the MTA payroll expense, Nassau could easily find a private operator to do it for $4M a year. A small fraction of the $35M-$40M the MTA wants.

Last edited by Pequaman; 05-09-2011 at 11:05 PM..
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
16,408 posts, read 33,237,116 times
Reputation: 7338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pequaman View Post
Only about 1 in 30 (search this thread for math on this) people in Nassau County use LI Bus. Nassau County pay $10M directly towards it, and we pay millions more paid through various methods described earlier in this thread (Drivers license, registrations, cell phones, $100M toward MTA payroll tax). Yet we're about to see the cost go up to $35 Million (about $90 extra per household in Nassau) for a service that almost no one here uses. We shouldn't have to pay 3.5x more to subsidize NYC transit, and at the same time receive 50% less service. The MTA needs to get its OT abuse in check and stop shiiting on Nassau County for the benefit the city.
Does anyone know if the MTA payroll tax (or any of the other taxes levied on Nassau residents for the MTA) will go down when LI Bus is no longer run by MTA? It's only fair if the LI Bus goes completely off their budget.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Massapequa Park
3,172 posts, read 6,731,866 times
Reputation: 1374
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but View Post
Does anyone know if the MTA payroll tax (or any of the other taxes levied on Nassau residents for the MTA) will go down when LI Bus is no longer run by MTA? It's only fair if the LI Bus goes completely off their budget.
I highly doubt anything will go down; AFAIK, as long as we're in the MCTD, we're stuck until NYS repeals the payroll tax.
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Old 05-11-2011, 08:18 AM
 
3,852 posts, read 4,505,361 times
Reputation: 4516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pequaman View Post
Well if you don't care, then I'm going to assume you live in Hempstead. I could understand why you want to see the county pony up $35M for LIBS because it benefits you more than the rest of the county.
Quote:
Now on the math: from Average Annual Miles per Driver by Age Group
avg miles/yr= 13,476 / 20 mpg = 674 gallons [avg mpg is 20, not 22... 22 is cars, 18 for trucks/suv/vans]
674 * .67 = ~$450 (prob $500 considering LI idle gas waste), again about one fill up per week.

The number is high and it's $450 more than non-drivers pay.
So it's in the middle of what we claimed, fair enough.
Quote:
The county does charge for roads, as does each Town. But the majority of it is paid for through collection of these taxes. Are you really going to try to convince me that tax money from gas taxes going to the county general fund is different than tax money used for roads? It's all green. And this money, along with sales taxes, are then filtered to the various Towns within the county. Which are then used for roads or to balance budgets. It's not uncommon for the County & Towns to share expenses when doing major road-work, including use of federal or state aid where applicable.
You say that but again the study I quoted says otherwise. I understand your point and it seems to make logical sense but the numbers don't add up to pay for it despite all that. Like I said earlier, if you have a source that gas taxes are paying for roads, I'd be happy to consider it.
Quote:
Going private will be a lot cheaper than what the MTA is looking for. Suffolk Transit runs at $24M cost to taxpayers; and they have 3x the land area to cover with much lower ridership. With economies of scale and not having to deal with the MTA payroll expense, Nassau could easily find a private operator to do it for $4M a year. A small fraction of the $35M-$40M the MTA wants.
As JIW said earlier, Suffolk Transit has far fewer routes and doesn't run at night. Do you think that a private carrier can maintain the same service level just buy cutting pension graft? Privatizing doesn't save taxpayer dollars or improve services, it just changes who gets those dollars. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison#Criticisms_2]Look at private prisons, for example.[/quote]
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