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You tell 'em Crooks! There's only room for ONE super-sensitive big baby on this board and everyone knows you cornered that market two screen names ago!
Damn Right!
Who is working it out in therapy now?
No turdpolish.
as I said earlier, the thick LI accent you're referring to can be found in many places other than "South Shore Nassau". None of what you wrote refutes that. It would seem that census data (where did all those pesky Brooklyn Italians go!) would help your case more than an article from Newsday (a paper you've bashed on more than one occasion IIRC).
While the article appeared in the less-than-stellar Newsday, the periodical is not a reflection on the individuals interviewed. Karen Huffman's published research is rather interesting, but not all of it is concentrated on the LI region.
Yes, the thick accent can be found elsewhere, but, the area where one would find the greatest population density of individuals with aforementioned thick accent can be found more readily on the south shore.
Searching, I am unfortunately stuck with 2000 Census breakdown of Italian populations (following the linguists observation that Italian Americans from Brooklyn brought the accent out with them) and have come to find that the areas most densely populated by Americans of Italian descent are:
Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
*I've removed any non-LI communities (NJ, RI, CT, NYS)
That leaves us with 67 communities with Italian populations of 25% or greater.
Of those 67, 28 are on the south shore, are 30 centrally located and 9 are on the north shore.
Nassau county has 12 on the SS, 11 central, 2 on the NS
Suffolk has 16 on the SS, 19 central, 7 on the NS
Looking over all the communities listed, I am seeing clusters (towns which border other towns on the list) emerge:
1) Valley Stream, Lynbrook, Malverne
2) Barnum Island/Island Park
3) North New Hyde Park, New Hyde Park, Franklin Square, GC South
4) East Willston, Carle Place
5) N Merrick, N Bellmore, N Wantagh, Levittown, Seaford, Massapequa, Mass Park, N Mass, Plainedge, Bethpage, F'dale, S F'dale.
6) Copaigue, N Lindenhurst, Lindenhurst, Babylon, WBab, W Islip, NBab, Deer Park
7) East Islip, Islip Terrace, N Great River, Oakdale, W Sayville, Bohemia, Holbrook, Holtsville, Farmingville, Ronkonkoma, Lake Ronk, Nesconset, Hauppauge, Lake Grove, Centereach, Terryville, Mount Sinai, Selden, Coram, Middle Island, Rocky Point, Ridge, Medford, N Patchogue, E Patchogue.
8) Shirley, Mastic, Mastic Beach, Moriches, Manorville
9) Kings Park, Commack
10) St James/Head of the Harbor
*Glen Head and Bayville are not close enough to the other Nassau groups.
Perhaps this gives us a better idea of where Italians (descendants of immigrants who arrived in Brooklyn and/or NYC in general) moved out toward. These areas might more readily have the 'Brooklyn Italian' accent the linguist mentioned in the article, as opposed to areas which had a higher Jewish, German, African American, or Hispanic population. In areas with a higher Asian population, we aren't going to hear the same LI accent as we do in the areas 1-10.
So if you're lookin foor someone ta borrow sugah foor your cawfee, you might wanna ask someone in one-a doze ten places. Otherwise you might wind up with sugar in your coffee.
While the article appeared in the less-than-stellar Newsday, the periodical is not a reflection on the individuals interviewed. Karen Huffman's published research is rather interesting, but not all of it is concentrated on the LI region.
Yes, the thick accent can be found elsewhere, but, the area where one would find the greatest population density of individuals with aforementioned thick accent can be found more readily on the south shore.
Searching, I am unfortunately stuck with 2000 Census breakdown of Italian populations (following the linguists observation that Italian Americans from Brooklyn brought the accent out with them) and have come to find that the areas most densely populated by Americans of Italian descent are:
Moderator cut: links removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
*I've removed any non-LI communities (NJ, RI, CT, NYS)
That leaves us with 67 communities with Italian populations of 25% or greater.
Of those 67, 28 are on the south shore, are 30 centrally located and 9 are on the north shore.
Nassau county has 12 on the SS, 11 central, 2 on the NS
Suffolk has 16 on the SS, 19 central, 7 on the NS
Looking over all the communities listed, I am seeing clusters (towns which border other towns on the list) emerge:
1) Valley Stream, Lynbrook, Malverne
2) Barnum Island/Island Park
3) North New Hyde Park, New Hyde Park, Franklin Square, GC South
4) East Willston, Carle Place
5) N Merrick, N Bellmore, N Wantagh, Levittown, Seaford, Massapequa, Mass Park, N Mass, Plainedge, Bethpage, F'dale, S F'dale.
6) Copaigue, N Lindenhurst, Lindenhurst, Babylon, WBab, W Islip, NBab, Deer Park
7) East Islip, Islip Terrace, N Great River, Oakdale, W Sayville, Bohemia, Holbrook, Holtsville, Farmingville, Ronkonkoma, Lake Ronk, Nesconset, Hauppauge, Lake Grove, Centereach, Terryville, Mount Sinai, Selden, Coram, Middle Island, Rocky Point, Ridge, Medford, N Patchogue, E Patchogue.
8) Shirley, Mastic, Mastic Beach, Moriches, Manorville
9) Kings Park, Commack
10) St James/Head of the Harbor
*Glen Head and Bayville are not close enough to the other Nassau groups.
Perhaps this gives us a better idea of where Italians (descendants of immigrants who arrived in Brooklyn and/or NYC in general) moved out toward. These areas might more readily have the 'Brooklyn Italian' accent the linguist mentioned in the article, as opposed to areas which had a higher Jewish, German, African American, or Hispanic population. In areas with a higher Asian population, we aren't going to hear the same LI accent as we do in the areas 1-10.
So if you're lookin foor someone ta borrow sugah foor your cawfee, you might wanna ask someone in one-a doze ten places. Otherwise you might wind up with sugar in your coffee.
I apologize if I offended you in any way. My mistake. I misinterpreted unawareness (or maybe a generational difference?), as snoot: "It's the south shore accent which people stereotype Lawn Guylanders with. (Think Buttafuoco) Most north shore folks (born, or relocated here from somewhere other than the 5 boroughs) do not sound as crass. "
I know you don't have a snooty bone in your body. I'm really not upset at all and don't feel like I'm being defensive, either. SIB and I see eye-to-eye on this, IMO. We just approached it differently.
I kinda see what you're saying about the very slight difference in Italian vs German, Irish, Jewish, Puerto Rican, etc.. I think this is more evident in the old timers here--the original post-war baby boomer emigrants from QNS/BK/BX--than Gen X, Y and Z'ers. However, I don't really hear a difference in LI Accent between the offspring generations of the Brooklyn migrants (Children and Grandchildren, which would include the majority of us here today), regardless of ethnic background or geographical location on the Island. It kind of blended into one Long Island accent.
The thing is though, even if there really were a difference in accent between various Brooklyn/Queens ethnic groups, Italians moved everywhere on LI. So I don't know why that would be considered only a south shore thing, let alone south shore nassau. Look at all the villages and hamlets you posted up there. That's like 1/3rd of the Islands population all over the Island. North, South, East, West, Central, Nassau, Suffolk, etc... And if you took it a little further to 20%, you will see that the majority (at least 75%) of Towns fall into that category. I looked up some more towns that came to mind of where I know thick LI accents to exist and to get the majority of LI's data:
Nassau County - 21% Italian
Suffolk County - 23% Italian
Floral Park - 24%
Mineola - 21%
Westbury - 22%
Hicksville - 23%
Williston Park - 22%
Elmont - 18%
Manhasset Hills - 18%
Herricks - 19%
Syosset - 18%
Oyster Bay (Town) - 25% Italian
Garden City - 27% Irish, 23% Italian
Babylon (Town) - Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
· Italian - 26%
· Irish - 17%
· Black or African American - 16%
· German - 13%
· Polish - 5%
· English - 3%
Smithtown (Town) -Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
· Italian - 28%
· Irish - 20%
· German - 15%
· Polish - 5%
· English - 4%
· Russian - 3%
Brookhaven (Town) - Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
· Italian - 25%
· Irish - 19%
· German - 15%
· Polish - 5%
· English - 5%
· Black or African American - 4%
· Puerto Rican - 4%
· Russian - 2%
Hempstead - Town · Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed
Italian - 21%
· Irish - 15%
· Black or African American - 15%
· German - 10%
· Polish - 4%
It's like 90% of LI at ~20%++.
Also, no one lives in "Barnum Island". It's all IP over there.
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2008 Newsday had a lengthy Part II story about the Lawn Guyland aksent and how it varies depending upon where one lives on LI, where one (or one's parents) were from, etc. It was an interesting read which I mailed to my friend in CA who has lost his Lawn Guyland aksent after living out there for 20+ years. Then again, he was from Plainview and attended Catholic school with students from all over LI. He never really had a terrible aksent (a few dropper Rs) because was steeping in it like those of us in Matzohpizza.
Do you still have a link to this, obh? I do not have an account w/ Newsday.
__________________ ******************
People may not recall what you said to them, but they will always remember how you made them feel .
Populations move, and I agreed with that earlier. However they don't shift significantly to change the degree of accent in a community overnight. If a linguist, perhaps Marie K Huffman from my earlier article, wanted to study a Nassau accent of Brooklyn roots -- would she go to Bayport to find it; or would she go to an area where, historically, it has been most prevalent?
Wherever there were higher concentrations of one ethnic group moving to LI from NYC, one finds that group's phonetic qualities more prevalent. From the article I posted earlier:
If I go into a predominantly Hispanic community on LI, will I hear the exact same accent as I would in Massapequa, Seaford or Wantagh?
If I head into Wyandanch, would I hear the exact same accent as M, S or W?
If I head into Great Neck, would I hear the exact same accent as M, S or W?
No. As stated earlier, we fall under the group known as LI Accent, but within that group there are subsets -- such as the Bonacs.
FWIW the dropped R's that is a common thing across LI dates back to pre-Revolutionary LI.
Different dropped Rs. The "Bonac" accent still spoken in Springs/Amagansett and other parts of East Hampton Town (and to some extent Southampton and the North Fork from about Aquebogue East by locals goes back to 17th century English dialects that came with the first settlers. Completely different from the dropped Rs etc associated with Lawnguylandese which migrated out of the city with various waves of ethnic immigrants. Pockets of Patrician English hold out on the gold coast and summer colonies on the South shore, but I would say that "Bonac" has less than a generation left. In my lifetime the Pine Barrens hamlets of Brookhaven seem to have become outposts of Italian Brooklyn. 1 word survives from 17th century New Amsterdam Dutch that Brooklynites brought out to LI is "stoop". Of course, LI is arguably getting "shtupped" in many ways these days.
I'm making some generalizations of course. I've lived in 3 different towns on LI and accents did range widely based on education, ethnicity, and origin of parents/grand parents, and whether one was born there or moved in at some stage.
Different dropped Rs. The "Bonac" accent still spoken in Springs/Amagansett and other parts of East Hampton Town (and to some extent Southampton and the North Fork from about Aquebogue East by locals goes back to 17th century English dialects that came with the first settlers. Completely different from the dropped Rs etc associated with Lawnguylandese which migrated out of the city with various waves of ethnic immigrants. Pockets of Patrician English hold out on the gold coast and summer colonies on the South shore, but I would say that "Bonac" has less than a generation left. In my lifetime the Pine Barrens hamlets of Brookhaven seem to have become outposts of Italian Brooklyn. 1 word survives from 17th century New Amsterdam Dutch that Brooklynites brought out to LI is "stoop". Of course, LI is arguably getting "shtupped" in many ways these days.
I'm making some generalizations of course. I've lived in 3 different towns on LI and accents did range widely based on education, ethnicity, and origin of parents/grand parents, and whether one was born there or moved in at some stage.
Actually, the non-rhotic English that is spoken by suburban Long Islanders, Native Long Islanders, Bostonians, other New Englanders, and most Southerners, DOES share a common background. - Englant
People in England, (where the language originated) often soften, drop or misplace their "Rs" The "R" is not HARD but soft.
There is something called the "cot" "caught" merger. Most LIers, would pronounce them differently.
As would most people from England.
There are several distinct accents on LI. I would love to get a link to that story.
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