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So simple and yet so hard for some to grasp. The tax burden forces industry off the island. Industry leaving increases the tax burden on the rest. It's a downward spiral. Worse, to get any industry to stay we have to offer insane tax incentives and subsidies which adds jobs (thankfully) but without adding to the commercial tax base. Basically the private sector becomes the same type of ponzi scheme the public sector has become. Paying taxes just to support employment (and pensions). Nothing for infrastructure, services or growth. All of that goes on the credit card for our grandkids to pay. If they don't take everyone's advice and leave first.
Yes, your point is well taken.
It's not just the ridiculously high taxes, though. The entire cost structure on LI has evolved into a monster... making LI, and NY in general, very unattractive to business.
I was shocked when I saw this data point, then after thinking about it realized it was inevitable... so the real question is where does it lead? Because I am frankly shocked at how many folks continue to snap back with the default response to the overall civil service issue - "take the test" or more specifically "nothing's stopping you from getting one of these gravy train jobs". The problem is that the newest crop of teachers at the latest tier are not getting onto the same gravy train - not even close... and like what has happened to teachers, you're starting to see the cops give up the newest union members. Looking out to other states and their union killing legislation - even in a blue state like Ohio... you see where it's going. In fact, they're very, very smart about it by exempting the cops in the short term from anti-union legislation - getting the cops union's support while they destroy the rest.
Getting a teaching job today is nothing like getting a teaching job several years ago... which was nothing like getting a teaching job a decade ago. It's a very clear pattern - a pattern that is killing the profession as it is viewed today. So it will be very interesting to see this data point in 5 years... in 10 years... as all the lower tiered teachers are flushed out to collect their sweet pensions... leaving the tier 6s, 7s, etc - who knows how many more tiers there will be in the next 5+ years. Each one getting screwed over more than the last until nobody wants to even be a teacher anymore... Meanwhile the cops begin on this path of offering up their new hires to the angry mob... I don't understand how you ignore the borderline insane self devouring attitude of killing the largest sector of a workforce - and think things will get better.
WE ALL complain (myself included) However, WE ALL stay here. We all have choices!: Take the Police test then, go be a teacher, go get a gov job, move, ect..... All those jobs didn't ask for a bail out. All those jobs your lifestyle never changed. Meanwhile, when thing were good, CEO's, Banks, Wall Street, Corporations, ect... They were living the highlife. So do not take it out on the Cops, Teachers, Gov. Workers. No one wanted those jobs years ago.
I think we're getting away from the target here. At least for me, this is not about WANTING what they have, but more about trying to survive myself and provide a good life for my family. I do not want to be a teacher, nor do I want to be a cop. Since when did the motto of Civil service be, me first, public later.. Isnt it supposed to be the opposite? Case and point, Budget cuts hit the children first, not the teachers or the administration. The state cuts funding, my children get a poorer education?
I don't understand how you can compare a private company which earns money by providing a good or service based on the market with a service that is provided with no relevance to the market. Civil functions do not make money, they simply use it to provide services to the public. There is no market control.
There has got to be a balance here is all that people are searching for. At what point does it become unacceptable? If the public sector made 10 times what the private sector made.... Is that actually sustainable?
We stay here because this is our home, we grew up here, we have family here.... Politicians and Unions mess it up and we should all get up and go?
I think we're getting away from the target here. At least for me, this is not about WANTING what they have, but more about trying to survive myself and provide a good life for my family. I do not want to be a teacher, nor do I want to be a cop. Since when did the motto of Civil service be, me first, public later.. Isnt it supposed to be the opposite? Case and point, Budget cuts hit the children first, not the teachers or the administration. The state cuts funding, my children get a poorer education?
I don't understand how you can compare a private company which earns money by providing a good or service based on the market with a service that is provided with no relevance to the market. Civil functions do not make money, they simply use it to provide services to the public. There is no market control.
There has got to be a balance here is all that people are searching for. At what point does it become unacceptable? If the public sector made 10 times what the private sector made.... Is that actually sustainable?
We stay here because this is our home, we grew up here, we have family here.... Politicians and Unions mess it up and we should all get up and go?
Because people should blame the corporation, CEOs, Wall Street, ect... For the mess we are in. They killed jobs through greed! Not the public service workers. Agree, Unions killed a lot of those jobs too.
As far as growing up here and getting up and leave, family here, ect... They do not pay our bills.
Because people should blame the corporation, CEOs, Wall Street, ect... For the mess we are in. They killed jobs through greed! Not the public service workers. Agree, Unions killed a lot of those jobs too.
As far as growing up here and getting up and leave, family here, ect... They do not pay our bills.
CEO's, Corporations and wall street aren't responsible for the state income and property taxes that everyone on LI pays.
All of your points are valid but why should we leave? What is the point in that? Move somewhere that is functioning at a higher level with competent politicians (ok, reasonably competent ), business and tech friendly, growing infrastructure, development savvy? Why not strive for that here? We have the money and the intelligent enough work force. I've lived in some pretty hot places from Austin to Boston. My wife won't leave. So my choice is leave without her or try to haul my own little crumbling 'burb into the 21st century kicking and screaming and dragging the Kate Murrays, various Nimby regimes and public sector trough feasters along 'aint easy! I don't care if CEO's make skyrocketing wages. I don't pay them. If it means they are expanding and hiring and paying taxes and buying the GI Joe with the kung fu grip and eating out 5 nights a week, more power to them. Bonuses for laying people off? That I'm not on board with. Any more than I'm on board with paying KG teachers $125k plus stellar benefits, pension and lifetime tenure. They are both wrong. Paying cops $150k+ in a historically suburban low crime area, also wrong.
Or how about those CEOs and management who cut their employees paychecks and stop giving them bonuses because they want more money, I've been through that. More common than you think.
Stellar benefits, pension, tenure, etc. That's the comforts of all government employees, not just Long Island teachers and cops. Like I said, if you want to be nannied by the government with stellar benefits and retirement plans, then obtain a civil service job.
Public or private sector, anyone who is a professional or works a white collar job should be making six figures after working many years on Long Island. I sure as heck would want to, considering this is the most expensive region in the country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magillicuddy
You're making sweeping brushes at those who "complain all day" when really the news everyday provokes anger and not optimism. It's hard to make change against a sea of antiquated ideology, free money and localized power. Damn hard. Some of us keep trying and will b*tch mightily along the way. I won't apologize for that.
And whining on CD about it is going to change things? How about starting a group instead of its that bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magillicuddy
BTW, that $8-9k median property tax # you referenced includes the school taxes. If you pay straight $8-9k in property tax alone, the house is well over a million dollars and the school tax will likely be $15k or more for a total bill of $23k+. In most districts taxes are almost 3-1 school tax burden. The average $360k Levittown home pays approx. $11k in taxes. $8k school and library, $3k property. Most districts are proportionately similar (more or less...i.e. Island Trees and Hicksville less, Jericho and Syosset more).
Ok. I don't doubt you that some property taxes here can be $10-20K, but the median property + school tax is ~$8K on Long Island, same as Westchester and NNJ. Quite a difference from $15K.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magillicuddy
Cuomo's 2% is supposed to help but the schools are already finding their way around it with the usual fear mongering tactic of threatening programs and Nassau's (for example) convoluted assessment system is slamming anyone who doesn't challenge by making them pick up the tab for anyone who does win a challenge. See the thread on the boards of how many of us voted on a 1.7% increase and got hit with a 10% or more increase. Mostly elderly or those not savvy enough to play the game. The enemy is powerful, smart, entrenched and has a lot of people duped into fearing any change ("oh my god, we'll be another Queens!"). Queens is booming by the way. Getting ready to build a an elevated park similar to Manhattan's High Line. Bully for them. Some good news in the paper today....for Queens, not us. Typical.
Queens is booming? No, places like Raleigh and Austin are booming, not Queens. Unless you consider the yuppificiation of Astoria and the renovation of the Mets stadium booming..but to me that is revitalization not booming. Queens looks and feels the same to me as it did 15 years ago, except with more retail maybe and more immigrants (don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with that).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magillicuddy
Why should we complain about any of that or try to change it? Just board up the house, leave the keys on the counter for Wells Fargo and shuffle off to Montana. That will be GREAT for those who stay, won't it?
Manhattan is the center for business, not Long Island. You mention these NIMBYs and government against new business on Long Island. While that does play a role, the truth is most businesses would probably prefer Manhattan, where the action is, not sleepy Long Island. Yes, there are companies that would look into relocating outside NYC, but they would rather locate to Westchester, NNJ, or CT before Long Island. This is because Long Island is PITA to get on and off of, it's more convenient for them to be on the mainland NYC suburbs. My company actually has another location in Westchester, and they're located there instead of Long Island because it's a more convenient location along with maybe less NIMBY there, as you mentioned.
Because people should blame the corporation, CEOs, Wall Street, ect... For the mess we are in. They killed jobs through greed! Not the public service workers. Agree, Unions killed a lot of those jobs too.
As far as growing up here and getting up and leave, family here, ect... They do not pay our bills.
I really do not quite understand why people are all over corporate greed. The job of a corporation is to make money for their owners, nothing else. Everything they do is for money, the same with small business. They sponsor a public event, its to gain favor inorder to increase revenue and thus profits. By doing so, they employ people whos sole purpose is to increase their own wealth. Corporations dont hire employees for teh good of the world.
Why should we always blame corporations. This real estate bubble and these bad mortgages was not solely caused by them. There are alot of stupid people out there that deserve more than 1/2 of that blame. They over extended themselves and put themselves into a position where there would be no way to recover. And who really cares if the CEO of XYZ corp makes 20Billion 1 year.
Next time you go out and buy a car. Why not just pay a little extra, maybe 2,000 for the welfare of the employees who work for that corporation, or will you just try and get the best possible price?
Or how about those CEOs and management who cut their employees paychecks and stop giving them bonuses because they want more money, I've been through that. More common than you think.
And they can do that. If they deem that the CEO is more valuable to the company than employees having bonuses, then they can do that. I have been through it too. So lets see if we went the other way. Board decides that CEO is valuable, lets give him the raise and keep bonuses for employees, but wait, we dont have enough revenue... yea we will just stick it to our customers... They wont leave. Thats essentially what the public sector does, stick it to the customers -- They're a captive audience after all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkingElsewhere
Stellar benefits, pension, tenure, etc. That's the comforts of all government employees, not just Long Island teachers and cops. Like I said, if you want to be nannied by the government with stellar benefits and retirement plans, then obtain a civil service job.
Ok. I don't doubt you that some property taxes here can be $10-20K, but the median property + school tax is ~$8K on Long Island, same as Westchester and NNJ. Quite a difference from $15K.
People want to pursue their own interests and careers. They should not be brought down by the services that the government provides. You are looking at it the wrong way.. The PRIVATE SECTOR supports the public sector. The public sector cannot outpace the private sector.. Its just illogical.
Oh and my taxes are now 17K thanks to everyones challenges. My average house in an average neighborhood
Ok. I don't doubt you that some property taxes here can be $10-20K, but the median property + school tax is ~$8K on Long Island, same as Westchester and NNJ. Quite a difference from $15K..
}snipped by poster for brevity
I could be wrong but this sounds on the low side in my mind, can you tell me the source of your info? I would agree that maybe that was the number a few years ago but I don't think that applies now, going solely on friends and family scattered island wide. TRS and ERS payments have been rising the last several years and continue to do so.
nd who really cares if the CEO of XYZ corp makes 20Billion 1 year.
Next time you go out and buy a car. Why not just pay a little extra, maybe 2,000 for the welfare of the employees who work for that corporation, or will you just try and get the best possible price?
Yes because the CEO absolutely needs to make $20 billion. Forget $15 billion, that's too little. The left over $5 billion should go to the CEO instead of welfare of the employees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tummymumma
And they can do that. If they deem that the CEO is more valuable to the company than employees having bonuses, then they can do that. I have been through it too. So lets see if we went the other way. Board decides that CEO is valuable, lets give him the raise and keep bonuses for employees, but wait, we dont have enough revenue... yea we will just stick it to our customers... They wont leave. Thats essentially what the public sector does, stick it to the customers -- They're a captive audience after all.
Got to love these wonderful business ethics you mention. The price of most products hasn't increased that dramatically in the last 10-15 years probably because of outsourcing. Instead, the corporate has put the jobs in China where they can make millions by using cheap labor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tummymumma
People want to pursue their own interests and careers. They should not be brought down by the services that the government provides. You are looking at it the wrong way.. The PRIVATE SECTOR supports the public sector. The public sector cannot outpace the private sector.. Its just illogical.
Never said anything about not pursuing what you want. The fact is the public sector always had better benefits than the private sector. I made the choice to work in private sector when I could have worked in public sector. IMO, I have no right to go around complaining about the public sector benefits when I've made the choice to work in public sector.
BTW, there are some private corporations that do give pensions if you ever want the option.
Yes, public sector salaries have increased because of higher taxes. But we're not looking at the other side of the story- the fact that many private sector jobs has not been able to maintain good salaries, that initially will always be the corporations fault.
Again, the rule of demand. Why do you think Hostess went out of business and Apple is thriving..higher demand and better management/creativity/marketing/etc..
Quote:
Originally Posted by tummymumma
Oh and my taxes are now 17K thanks to everyones challenges. My average house in an average neighborhood
And the median is still ~$8000 for 2011.
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), business and tech friendly, growing infrastructure, development savvy? Why not strive for that here? We have the money and the intelligent enough work force. I've lived in some pretty hot places from Austin to Boston. My wife won't leave. So my choice is leave without her or try to haul my own little crumbling 'burb into the 21st century kicking and screaming and dragging the Kate Murrays, various Nimby regimes and public sector trough feasters along 'aint easy! I don't care if CEO's make skyrocketing wages. I don't pay them. If it means they are expanding and hiring and paying taxes and buying the GI Joe with the kung fu grip and eating out 5 nights a week, more power to them. Bonuses for laying people off? That I'm not on board with. Any more than I'm on board with paying KG teachers $125k plus stellar benefits, pension and lifetime tenure. They are both wrong. Paying cops $150k+ in a historically suburban low crime area, also wrong.
