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How are people not being able to afford anymore property tax increases anything other than "realistic" reasoning? And it isn't just about the retirement system, it's about salaries.
As I pointed out yesterday, as per City-data, the median family income in Smithtown in 2009 was $105K. The median property tax for housing units with mortgages was $8,803.
9% of a families income going mostly to teachers and cops isn't sustainable, especially on top of Federal and State taxe burdens, and an 8.75% sales tax....there's a reason that's what everyone bellyaches about around here..because it's what's crushing everyone.
Other 'cities' contribute far more overall, albeit their individual employees are paid less.
People cannot continue to afford LI because the houses are grossly overpriced, and the taxes fall entirely on the residents. That system does not, and will never function.
To keep slightly to the original topic- the budgets still manage to pass, because people who live on Long Island are still choosing to be as pro-education (and thus pro-educator) as they can. Realistically I can't think of any other good reason to live there- unless you're an avid boater or very wealthy.
People fault the system and for some reason teachers more than anyone, and I feel bad for both parties. Vote with your feet though, the system is beyond repair because it was built using a model that requires a commercial/industrial base that just wont ever exist.
If a contract isn't agreed upon by both sides, the Taylor law would yes prevent striking, but it would just keep the last contract in effect until a new one is negotiated.
Insurance Premiums at 30% is ridiculous, I know folks in the private sector who pay less than that. 20% is the max I'd ever expect a public sector employee to pay for his/her health care.
The banking of sick days for employees of Tier 6 has no bearing on day to day costs- as they can't use a year worth to increase their years of service. Encouraging teachers to use sick days is ultimately more costly and disruptive to the education system.
0-1% raises haven't been unheard of, though never for as long as a 3 year period.
Teachers in Chicago struck over concerns of health-insurance and assessment, and they get paid WELL better than Long Island teachers.
I still see so many comments of trying to cut down Educators because 'they can't afford it anymore', and 'the market can bear cheaper labor', rather than for any other realistic reasoning. Unions job is to prevent the china-ization of labor. I'm sure there is some level of guilt in what they know, but realistically the issues that were built by the retirement system is more of what's causing this crippling effect.
The national average employee healthcare contribution is approaching 30%. Sick days should be reduced to private sector levels and both those and vacation days should be used during the school year and not carried over. Teachers are allowed to cash in banked vacation and sick days at the end of their career with the district, so this does cost taxpayers. Superintendents are the worst offenders, often charging districts several hundred dollars for each banked day.
0-1% raises are very common in the private sector, particularly in companies that may not be doing well at the moment. And, of course, private sector employees have no job security.
You sound like many of the teachers and administrators, who usually have no clue as to conditions in the real world.
Other 'cities' contribute far more overall, albeit their individual employees are paid less.
People cannot continue to afford LI because the houses are grossly overpriced, and the taxes fall entirely on the residents. That system does not, and will never function.
To keep slightly to the original topic- the budgets still manage to pass, because people who live on Long Island are still choosing to be as pro-education (and thus pro-educator) as they can. Realistically I can't think of any other good reason to live there- unless you're an avid boater or very wealthy.
People fault the system and for some reason teachers more than anyone, and I feel bad for both parties. Vote with your feet though, the system is beyond repair because it was built using a model that requires a commercial/industrial base that just wont ever exist.
Housing prices are not the issue, when you look at salaries and benefits for teachers on LI they are most definitely an issue.
Yes budgets still manage to pass just as crooked polititicians continue to get elected. Voters are really not educated and unwilling or unable to invest the time to understand some basic issues, if they did NYS would be a better place to live. Paying gym teachers and kindergarten teachers $130K yes the system is broken. We lost large industries like Grumman, Sperry and many other small businesses but we continue down the same path with these contracts in a game that is stacked against the taxpayer.
Housing prices are not the issue, when you look at salaries and benefits for teachers on LI they are most definitely an issue.
Yes budgets still manage to pass just as crooked polititicians continue to get elected. Voters are really not educated and unwilling or unable to invest the time to understand some basic issues, if they did NYS would be a better place to live. Paying gym teachers and kindergarten teachers $130K yes the system is broken. We lost large industries like Grumman, Sperry and many other small businesses but we continue down the same path with these contracts in a game that is stacked against the taxpayer.
Housing prices are incredibly an issue. I wouldn't consider a middle class home on LI until prices came down 40% or more. People are out of their mind to pay 300K for a 3/1 Levitt home. LI is not by any stretch of the imagine a desirable place to live anymore, nor are these homes in stellar condition.
That said, LI is also not a desirable place to do business. Cut taxes in half and you're still not competitive with your neighbor NYC as a business place. You don't see Charles Wang complaining about his school taxes- it's other issues that prevent LI from becoming prosperous.
There are plenty of gym teachers and kindergarten teachers making $55K too. The high end is costly, but those teachers who are making 130K have Masters + 60 credits if not PhDs, and have been working for 25 years in a decent district. That's at least 5 contract negotiations they've worked through in their lifetime teaching... guess what? No one has seriously contested this in 5 contracts. It's just the norm, 3% over a lifetime compounded...
Housing prices are incredibly an issue. I wouldn't consider a middle class home on LI until prices came down 40% or more. People are out of their mind to pay 300K for a 3/1 Levitt home. LI is not by any stretch of the imagine a desirable place to live anymore, nor are these homes in stellar condition.
That said, LI is also not a desirable place to do business. Cut taxes in half and you're still not competitive with your neighbor NYC as a business place. You don't see Charles Wang complaining about his school taxes- it's other issues that prevent LI from becoming prosperous.
There are plenty of gym teachers and kindergarten teachers making $55K too. The high end is costly, but those teachers who are making 130K have Masters + 60 credits if not PhDs, and have been working for 25 years in a decent district. That's at least 5 contract negotiations they've worked through in their lifetime teaching... guess what? No one has seriously contested this in 5 contracts. It's just the norm, 3% over a lifetime compounded...
Housing prices have always been high, if new homeowners are willing to pay those prices that is their choice, that is what the market dictates.
Teacher contracts have been under the radar for the last 20 years, how many contracts have been published or made available as part of the budget process, no one even knew what was in the contract except for school boards that pretty much approved any contract the administration put before them. It wasn't until seethroughny.com made these available that voters even knew the details. Most contracts are wll over 3% for the last 10 years including schedule and cost of living increases.
I don't care what a kindergarten teacher's starting salary was, we do not need to pay that type of salary and benefits for someone after 25 years. We do not need to automatically reward education credits and I don't want a kindergarten teacher being paid for a PHD or anyone else for that matter.
LI is not a desirable place to do business, taxes is one of the reasons.
What do you expect? Other than NYC, New York State is a public sector economy (including both Upstate NY and Long Island).
Until New York State has a strong private sector market, public sector jobs will be the domiant employer that pays well for both Long Island and Upstate NY.
Taxes is probably the main reason along with civilian attitude. But NYS has a lot against it. Long Island is surrounded by water, making transporting goods more costly which businesses don't like. Inconvenient geography will always be a major reason why Long Island won't have a decent private sector economy. Most of the cities in Upstate NY look like horror movies, and the climate is amongst the worst in the US with gray, overcast, no sunshine, freezing winters. Again, what business wants to be in that kind of environment?
NYS has the highest number of public sector workers per capita than any other state. The Binghamton University basketball coach makes like $700K+ a year, NYS governor has the highest salary of any other state governor.
Teacher pensions should be funded by the state like everywhere else. I guess the state has too many employees of their own to take care of and therefore can't help pay for teacher pensions, so they let the local taxpayer take care of that.
NYC has a great private sector market with many opportunities, problem is that the market there has gotten extremely competitive over the last few years. More yuppies with skills have moved in ever since NYC started gentrifying like crazy, which has made the NYC job market more challenging for locals. One of the reasons Long Islanders can't find high paying jobs in NYC as easy as they used to. You need a good education and/or some high quality in demand skills in order to find a high paying job in NYC these days.
Unless you're able to overcome the competitive job market in NYC and land a well-paid job, are a public sector employer, or the healthcare/medical field..you're screwed in New York State. Most likely you're private sector job will pay a lousy salary and you'll be stuck paying high taxes.
Last edited by ThinkingElsewhere; 05-24-2013 at 09:04 PM..
Housing prices have always been high, if new homeowners are willing to pay those prices that is their choice, that is what the market dictates.
Teacher contracts have been under the radar for the last 20 years, how many contracts have been published or made available as part of the budget process, no one even knew what was in the contract except for school boards that pretty much approved any contract the administration put before them. It wasn't until seethroughny.com made these available that voters even knew the details. Most contracts are wll over 3% for the last 10 years including schedule and cost of living increases.
I don't care what a kindergarten teacher's starting salary was, we do not need to pay that type of salary and benefits for someone after 25 years. We do not need to automatically reward education credits and I don't want a kindergarten teacher being paid for a PHD or anyone else for that matter.
LI is not a desirable place to do business, taxes is one of the reasons.
Every single contract since the beginning of NYS history was available to the public since the 1853 consolidation creating "union-free" school districts. Publicly spent money is generally entirely accountable for if you ask the right sources. All you're telling me is the public now has easy access from home, they are now outcrying- about what they consider overcompensation.
Nothing has ever been under my radar.
When I was in HS I knew what the staff was making, and I generally keep up with it wherever I'm living.
Maybe its why it isn't a shock.
Some places compensate better than others.
Some workplaces compensate better than others.
I don't know a load of PhD Kindergarten Teachers, don't think there are as many out there as you make it out to be and I certainly don't think that's the best way for anyone to spend 10 years in University.
Frankly, if the fed and the state didn't REQUIRE educators to continue education for a lifetime, escalations like that might not happen.
See what teacher pay is in countries like Korea, Germany, Portugal, Japan, UK and you'd REALLY freak out.
I believe teachers should be HIGHLY qualified, product quality results, and be compensated very well.
What the private sector can bear really has no relevance- especially since any quality LI student will have to leave to find a high paying private sector job- and while you can point at the tax bill all you want, it isn't the root of the issue.
NYC is a better place to do business. LI has nothing to offer than NYC can't beat and then some.
Housing prices are not the issue, when you look at salaries and benefits for teachers on LI they are most definitely an issue.
Yes budgets still manage to pass just as crooked polititicians continue to get elected. Voters are really not educated and unwilling or unable to invest the time to understand some basic issues, if they did NYS would be a better place to live. Paying gym teachers and kindergarten teachers $130K yes the system is broken. We lost large industries like Grumman, Sperry and many other small businesses but we continue down the same path with these contracts in a game that is stacked against the taxpayer.
voters are not educated, and most people don't vote on the budget ! Take a look at the turnout - in our case less than 4000 votes in a town of 36,000 .
Two years ago at a school budget meeting, the school superintendent told a packed auditorium that our teachers were "only receiving a 2 percent raise" this year due to renegotiaton of the original contract, which called for a three percent raise. What he did NOT mention was that their 3% step increases were still in effect. I raised my hand and called him on that.
Everyone in the auditorium looked at me as if I had two heads (with the exception of the educators in the front rows , who were glaring my way). Outside of the teachers in the meeting, I don't think anyone there knew about the step increases !
The admin then corrected himself , and admitted the raise was actually five percent. I reminded him he was in error once more, since the raises are compounded , the raise was actually 5.06 percent.
What the superintendent was doing there is called "lying by omission".
Chicago Teachers making 49k minimum to 92k max.
Having their strike, they are gaining 17% in compensation over 4 years.
vs. say Massapequa (median salary) 53K minimum to 120k max.
vs. say Amityville (probably the lowest) 47K minimum to 104k max. (this is 2011-2012 so a bit dated).
Even without comparing COL the salaries are fairly close in number and absolutely compare to that of LI SDs.
When comparing COL, the purchase power is roughly 50% higher in Chicago vs. LI, and about 75% higher in Chicago vs. NYC. Teacher's in Chicago and Cook County do very well for themselves.
Highest 20% average property taxes in Cook county - $6000.
Median 40-60% property taxes in Nassau - $8628.
As always, the math does not sure a pure correlation between salaries and property taxes.
Whats your point? Sounds like we are in agreement. You stated about Chicago teachers "they get paid WELL better than Long Island teachers". They don't.
Nothing has ever been under my radar.
When I was in HS I knew what the staff was making, and I generally keep up with it wherever I'm living.
Maybe its why it isn't a shock.
I can only speak for my SD but it wasn't until the Empire Project went online in 2007 that the SD decided to put it on their website. Prior to that they said they were not legally required to provide the contract and shunted requestors off to the teacher's union that in turn said if you are not a member no contract.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WithDisp
See what teacher pay is in countries like Korea, Germany, Portugal, Japan, UK and you'd REALLY freak out.
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