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It is not the property taxes which are outrageous -- it's the school portion of the taxes which are. My property tax (excluding schools) here on LI is almost the same as my property tax (excluding schools) in Vermont -- AND -- I am getting more services for that money on LI.
Comparing your property taxes (minus school tax) to Vermont is not saying much since Vermont has some of the highest taxes in the country.
LI Teachers, however, do not work in Vermont and are not subject to those taxes.
I didn't say anything about LI teachers and Vermont taxes. Please stop using that comeback everytime somebody constructively criticizes your comment.
You were saying that if you take away the school tax portion of your LI property taxes, it's on par with your Vermont property taxes. Vermont has some of the highest property taxes in the country, and stating that LI property taxes (excluding school taxes) are similar to Vermont property taxes..well it basically says that property taxes are still high. You're all making it sound as if we get rid of the high school tax portion LI property taxes will be as cheap as a place like Alabama. What I am saying - take away school tax, LI property taxes are still high!
This is the problem. Even taking away the high taxes, you NEED a fairly high salary in order to live comfortably on LI. And yes, some people are doing ok on lower salaries, but many of these people inherited their parents' homes , received help with down payments or bought their houses before the prices of medium sized homes went through the roof. And yes, the homes are more expensive here than other places for what you get. My sister's home in north central CT is 100k less than mine on almost two acres vs my quarter acre. And it is a bigger house too. My parents live in Fairfield County. Their house appraised for the same as mine. But my house is 2100 square feet. Theirs is almost 4000 square feet..
How much do young people need to take home per month in order to make it here or to be able to finance a home here? Monthly payment is not everything- Especially with banks being so cautious about who they will lend to and how much they will lend. The banks want to see cash reserves.
Circular logic? We need to pay teachers more. The COL is high. We need to pay our teachers more.
And honestly, prices of houses are related to the stupidity of the home buyers. If someone wants to plunk down 400K on a 0.22 acre ranch, that's their business. Forcing people to pay outrageous taxes so that teachers can cost more then the average household income is ludicrous. Funny how young couples that aren't teachers are expected to subsidize the teachers lifestyle and ensure they get a good home.
Putting it differently:
2/3rds of my property taxes are school taxes: ~5280. Lets say we got teachers salaries and benefits under control and dropped them to merely costing 75% of household income, that's about 22% deduction in taxes. That's $1161 less that I am paying every year, or about $97. Hypothetically keeping my monthly payments the same, that means I can move my top monthly pay from from a $350,000 home (@3.5%) to a $375,000. That's a big difference for young home buyers who get squeezed, and that is based off a relatively sedate $8000 property tax. It goes to $1452 for a 10K/yr tax and $1742 for a 12K/yr tax.
But lets look in the NoVA area that was proposed. Alexandria, VA is well known, has better school rating IIRC, and they seem to manage with significantly lower taxes. 4br/2.5ba going for $550K outside Alexandria proper has a whooping $4700/yr in taxes. Homes in that range around here start with twice the taxes and easily triple it. So $5K/yr in savings is about $417/mo in savings. That means whereas before I can hypothetically afford a $350,000 I can now afford to own a $440,000/yr home. NINETY THOUSAND MORE! And since our homes do not cost as much as the aforementioned NoVA area, obviously our teachers would better be able to afford the niceties that they "deserve".
But then that darned circular logic comes in. Taxes are high, so COL is high, so we need to pay them more, and thus we need to raise taxes.
Last edited by SilverBulletZ06; 10-10-2012 at 08:24 PM..
Circular logic? We need to pay teachers more. The COL is high. We need to pay our teachers more.
And honestly, prices of houses are related to the stupidity of the home buyers. If someone wants to plunk down 400K on a 0.22 acre ranch, that's their business. Forcing people to pay outrageous taxes so that teachers can cost more then the average household income is ludicrous. Funny how young couples that aren't teachers are expected to subsidize the teachers lifestyle and ensure they get a good home.
Putting it differently:
2/3rds of my property taxes are school taxes: ~5280. Lets say we got teachers salaries and benefits under control and dropped them to merely costing 75% of household income, that's about 22% deduction in taxes. That's $1161 less that I am paying every year, or about $97. Hypothetically keeping my monthly payments the same, that means I can move my top monthly pay from from a $350,000 home (@3.5%) to a $375,000. That's a big difference for young home buyers who get squeezed, and that is based off a relatively sedate $8000 property tax. It goes to $1452 for a 10K/yr tax and $1742 for a 12K/yr tax.
But lets look in the NoVA area that was proposed. Alexandria, VA is well known, has better school rating IIRC, and they seem to manage with significantly lower taxes. 4br/2.5ba going for $550K outside Alexandria proper has a whooping $4700/yr in taxes. Homes in that range around here start with twice the taxes and easily triple it. So $5K/yr in savings is about $417/mo in savings. That means whereas before I can hypothetically afford a $350,000 I can now afford to own a $440,000/yr home. NINETY THOUSAND MORE! And since our homes do not cost as much as the aforementioned NoVA area, obviously our teachers would better be able to afford the niceties that they "deserve".
But then that darned circular logic comes in. Taxes are high, so COL is high, so we need to pay them more, and thus we need to raise taxes.
When you bring up $4700/yr for taxes in NoVA is this only school tax or total property tax? You can't compare Virginia property taxes to New York property taxes. Overall Virginia has much lower property tax rate than Long Island, even when you exclude LI school taxes. It's an apples to orange comparison. You're saying that with reduced school taxes you can afford an extra $25,000 for a house. Sorry but going from $350,000 to $375,000 there is usually not much of a difference in house features, not a big upgrade at all.
My point is that if you reduce school taxes or exclude them, property taxes are still very high on LI. High property taxes seem to be a Northeastern state thing.
Last edited by IceandFire; 10-10-2012 at 08:44 PM..
Circular logic? We need to pay teachers more. The COL is high. We need to pay our teachers more.
And honestly, prices of houses are related to the stupidity of the home buyers. If someone wants to plunk down 400K on a 0.22 acre ranch, that's their business. Forcing people to pay outrageous taxes so that teachers can cost more then the average household income is ludicrous. Funny how young couples that aren't teachers are expected to subsidize the teachers lifestyle and ensure they get a good home.
Putting it differently:
2/3rds of my property taxes are school taxes: ~5280. Lets say we got teachers salaries and benefits under control and dropped them to merely costing 75% of household income, that's about 22% deduction in taxes. That's $1161 less that I am paying every year, or about $97. Hypothetically keeping my monthly payments the same, that means I can move my top monthly pay from from a $350,000 home (@3.5%) to a $375,000. That's a big difference for young home buyers who get squeezed, and that is based off a relatively sedate $8000 property tax. It goes to $1452 for a 10K/yr tax and $1742 for a 12K/yr tax.
But lets look in the NoVA area that was proposed. Alexandria, VA is well known, has better school rating IIRC, and they seem to manage with significantly lower taxes. 4br/2.5ba going for $550K outside Alexandria proper has a whooping $4700/yr in taxes. Homes in that range around here start with twice the taxes and easily triple it. So $5K/yr in savings is about $417/mo in savings. That means whereas before I can hypothetically afford a $350,000 I can now afford to own a $440,000/yr home. NINETY THOUSAND MORE! And since our homes do not cost as much as the aforementioned NoVA area, obviously our teachers would better be able to afford the niceties that they "deserve".
But then that darned circular logic comes in. Taxes are high, so COL is high, so we need to pay them more, and thus we need to raise taxes.
Wait a minute... so you're saying if we cut teacher salaries 25%, we can afford much better starter homes in Alexandria, VA? This is one asinine metaphor.
You're also saying that people have to be stupid to pay for expensive small LI homes, and just as stupid to pay for the taxes?
You'd be right- just as stupid as businesses who think it's a better place to work and operate offices when NYC is right next door. Even given a 25% reduction in teacher salaries and benefits (which is a shameful proposal), you're not fixing any greater problem. It's still a lot in taxes.
Demand higher wages from the private sector and less quantity (but not underpaid) public servants.
Silverbullet- I never said pay them more. Just that 100k+ for an experienced teacher is not exhorbitant. 100k for an individual is merely middle class on LI. As I have said before, no one should be getting raises year after year in a bad economy, and the pension system will likely need to be overhauled/ phased out. But cuts have to be made to administration and at the state government level as well. Why are these people always immune? Work from the top down when making cuts. Cuts should not always only be from the bottom up...because at the top is where much of the waste is.
When you bring up $4700/yr for taxes in NoVA is this only school tax or total property tax? You can't compare Virginia property taxes to New York property taxes. Overall Virginia has much lower property tax rate than Long Island, even when you exclude LI school taxes. It's an apples to orange comparison. You're saying that with reduced school taxes you can afford an extra $25,000 for a house. Sorry but going from $350,000 to $375,000 there is usually not much of a difference in house features, not a big upgrade at all.
My point is that if you reduce school taxes or exclude them, property taxes are still very high on LI. High property taxes seem to be a Northeastern state thing.
Total property tax for the NoVA property.
Yes I can compare it, especially when they have comparable COL and the NoVA area has better overall schools.
An extra $25,000 is a lot, especially for younger couples/new home owners.
It's a "Northeastern" thing, so lets keep it up so we lose more then the 25-30% of the young adult crowd we already have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WithDisp
Wait a minute... so you're saying if we cut teacher salaries 25%, we can afford much better starter homes in Alexandria, VA? This is one asinine metaphor.
You're also saying that people have to be stupid to pay for expensive small LI homes, and just as stupid to pay for the taxes?
You'd be right- just as stupid as businesses who think it's a better place to work and operate offices when NYC is right next door. Even given a 25% reduction in teacher salaries and benefits (which is a shameful proposal), you're not fixing any greater problem. It's still a lot in taxes.
Demand higher wages from the private sector and less quantity (but not underpaid) public servants.
Sorry you were unable to follow the line of thought. Cutting salaries means affordability, which is key in this area.
The NoVA area was due to abother poster bringing up. This is called a "comparison". For example, comparitively, NoVA gets better schools for far less and their teachers aren't plowing up costs that exceed household salary each. Somehow they manage to keep up their level of academic fortitude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdlugozi
Silverbullet- I never said pay them more. Just that 100k+ for an experienced teacher is not exhorbitant. 100k for an individual is merely middle class on LI. As I have said before, no one should be getting raises year after year in a bad economy, and the pension system will likely need to be overhauled/ phased out. But cuts have to be made to administration and at the state government level as well. Why are these people always immune? Work from the top down when making cuts. Cuts should not always only be from the bottom up...because at the top is where much of the waste is.
100K is more then 90% of the people on LI will make, Having an AVERAGE cost of 100K is insane when put in perspective. In any economy.
The top 1% nonsense needs to go. It is simple numbers, there are dozens of teachers for every one big-wig. To top it off, the teachers themselves are teh 1% compared to most students families.
Also, $100,000+ per year for a single income is above what most people consider "middle class".
Folks who thing we are going to ever CUT teacher salaries are in dreamworld. My district has had a real freeze (raise and step) in teacher pay for the last two years and our teachers pay 30% of their medical insurance. Our budget still went up (overall levy 2%) despite laying off about 20 teachers. The administrator and non-teaching staff salaries did not freeze and none of the other school district expenses stayed the same over the last two years. In short, as long as property taxes pay for local government and schools they will continue to increase.
On a separate note I am not a teacher and my spouse is not a teacher. My children are not teachers. Given the cost of living here on Long Island and the fact that teachers here pay federal, state, property, and sales taxes I am not shocked at the average gross pay of a teacher. Even with the purported hours and days worked. Even with anecdotes of incompetence. On that we'll have to agree to disagree. But I hate paying my high property taxes as much as the next guy.
Yes I can compare it, especially when they have comparable COL and the NoVA area has better overall schools.
An extra $25,000 is a lot, especially for younger couples/new home owners.
It's a "Northeastern" thing, so lets keep it up so we lose more then the 25-30% of the young adult crowd we already have.
Sorry you were unable to follow the line of thought. Cutting salaries means affordability, which is key in this area.
The NoVA area was due to abother poster bringing up. This is called a "comparison". For example, comparitively, NoVA gets better schools for far less and their teachers aren't plowing up costs that exceed household salary each. Somehow they manage to keep up their level of academic fortitude.
100K is more then 90% of the people on LI will make, Having an AVERAGE cost of 100K is insane when put in perspective. In any economy.
The top 1% nonsense needs to go. It is simple numbers, there are dozens of teachers for every one big-wig. To top it off, the teachers themselves are teh 1% compared to most students families.
Also, $100,000+ per year for a single income is above what most people consider "middle class".
100K is not your average teacher salary. I think the average is 85K.
NoVA also has a huge economical base, because of it's neighbor Washington DC. Loudoun and Fairfax are some of the highest earning counties in the country, many jobs government contracted defense agencies.
The contributes incredibly to their taxes. The only difference are those salaries/taxes are divvied up amongst all federal taxpayers.
Chicago teachers get paid nearly the same as LI teachers and their COL is nearly half that of NYC which pays teachers a good 25% less than LI as some on here hope to see- meanwhile NYC's taxes are less than half that of Nassau/Suffolk.
Industry is more important than teacher salaries, and no reduction in salaries will make LI a desirable place to build industries.
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