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Well I guess everyone should all work for pharmacology research companies here in the NY metro area. They would all get >4 weeks paid leave, not lose their jobs, and maybe even get tenure and pensions. Finally their interests would be aligned with teachers and administrators. Bless the pharmacology research industry!
And yes, $100K isn't what it used to be. Neither is a million bucks. But a lot of average-wage workers don't even make it past 5 digits and they are being asked to cough up what dwindling amounts they have left, like it or not, so others can get paid $100K. Nothing wrong with it, right? $100K isn't what it used to be anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LardYmike50 Teachers can't save up and buy a house making $80,000 with minimum retirement funding, summers off, and no commuting costs?
How dare we expect teachers to save up to buy a house.
Not to nitpick but do you still think teachers live in the closets in the back of their classrooms? I have heard that some actually commute to work.
And you are talking GROSS 80K ...not so easy to live here on Long Island taking home 50K while saving to purchase a home.
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by LardYmike50
Do most Long Island teachers spend $250 for a lirr train ticket and another $80+ on subways per month??
A single person making $80k can live well, rent for a while and save up over time. Remember, no lirr/subway fares to pay, minimal retirement contribution and summers off (with the ability to earn more money). Sorry pal, you are out of touch.
No, most teachers commute to work by car and thus have the expense of car, gas, and insurance. Why would they "spend $250 for a lirr train ticket and another $80+ on subways per month" on top of that to commute to work when they have already arrived by car? I just realized you think the word 'commute' means to travel by mass transit. Wrong. Who is out of touch pal?
I would agree that with a 50K net (a middle class net here on Long Island) one can rent, own an auto, and pay all the other costs of living in a very high COL area and gradually save enough over time for a down payment on a home on Long Island .... which has some of the highest priced housing BTW in the nation. No disagreement there. As I indicated above.
When looking at cutting top pay by 20%, administration should be factored in to that as well. There is quite a bit of administrative fat that can be trimmed.
Some districts have been much more financially responsible than others. In some districts, there have been true pay freezes and teachers do pay into their medical, etc. But then people make blanket statements about the profession, clumping these people in with the others who have not compromised or sacrificed or have not made as responsible decisions. I wish there was more uniformity in this regard. Maybe consolidating districts is an answer.
Good point, I responded to someone who said their district had given all teachers a 14% raise over the last 2 years and that their teachers contributed 0% for health insurance. That , if true, is the opposite of the district I live in (2 years of real pay freezes and 30% insurance contribution). Another argument for consolidation or at least school board/suprintendent competency.
Also, I don't think all the posters are aware of the swollen administrative ranks in most school districts and still think there are just a handful of administrators in the districts and therefore don't realize what a colossal waste of money is involved. Some of the larger districts have upwards of 50 administrators. Some have begun to pare this down - especially the central office administrators.
Good point, I responded to someone who said their district had given all teachers a 14% raise over the last 2 years and that their teachers contributed 0% for health insurance. That , if true, is the opposite of the district I live in (2 years of real pay freezes and 30% insurance contribution). Another argument for consolidation or at least school board/suprintendent competency.
Also, I don't think all the posters are aware of the swollen administrative ranks in most school districts and still think there are just a handful of administrators in the districts and therefore don't realize what a colossal waste of money is involved. Some of the larger districts have upwards of 50 administrators. Some have begun to pare this down - especially the central office administrators.
I posted clearly about administrators salaries and how the teacher's salaries drive those up.
I also posted that you mistook my post as 14% raises when it's 7% (3.5+3.5=7).
Guess you didn't read any of that.
One more time for those in the cheap seats:
KG Teacher @ $125k: Works 7+hrs, 182 days, tenure, doesn't grade many papers, full benefits.
Administrator: @ $197k (avg in my district): Works long hrs, manages 100's, works 12 months, ugly political quagmire of a job dealing with parents, school board, union, auditors, lawyers, etc.
MOST admins come from the teaching ranks (due to NYSED cert requirements).
MOST teachers would not give up their gig to become an admin. The ones that do usually do it late in their career when the home nest is empty and they have the time to put in. At that point it is worth doing 5+ years and doubling that pay and resulting pension.
Summary: Teachers EASY to replace. Admins much HARDER to replace. If a KG teacher makes $125k OF COURSE an admin will make upwards of $250k. Is it reasonable? Not in a reasonable situation, but a KG teacher making $125k is NOT reasonable. THIS IS WHERE THE BARGAINING STARTS on contracts. That is why we are already so messed up going forward.
One mo' time:
Does it make sense to cut a $250k admin position (that deals with all of the above) to save $250k OR
cut 300 teachers by $1k each ($125k to 124k) with little to no pain for a savings of $300k PLUS saving the potential jobs of their union brothers and sisters?! Union says..."hell no."
In the REAL WORLD, it's a no brainer.
I'm so sick of everyone making this out to be a witch-hunt against the poor poor elementary teacher making great money for LI, Dubai, Switzerland, Mars, or any other part of the known universe. It's simple economics and market forces. The union was DESIGNED to protect against those IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR!!! Teachers are not gluing shoes and getting paid in rice. THey are not working 15hrs in coal mines. They do a vital and important job that has historically paid near the middle to top of median income and that is fine. It now pays FAR ABOVE THE MEDIAN INCOME IN SALARY AND BENEFITS. It has become public sector welfare and taxpayer rape on LI. Same with the police.
Anyone NOT at the trough knows it. Everyone at the trough knows it too. Some are smart enough to be thankful and keep their yaps shut. Others seem to have to play victim and defend the idiocy at every turn. Of course they are so defensive. They know they have a bonanza and don't want to lose any of it. They also know it's UNSUSTAINABLE but they don't care (Ed. Note: I probably wouldn't either, take that $ and run, baby).
School board votes are like changing seats on the Titanic. We're still all going down. Anyone catch the thread on the school tax levies?! I voted for 2%....got taxed 9.4%. Others got hit worse. Between the school budget and Nassau's moronic assessment debacle, the taxpayer continues to take it in the hind end.
How long will the tax base decline and contractual benefits climb before the system crumbles?! I hope it's soon!!
I voted for 2%....got taxed 9.4%. Others got hit worse. Between the school budget and Nassau's moronic assessment debacle, the taxpayer continues to take it in the hind end.
They did a piece on Levittown in Newsday's RE section yesterday, showed 2 or 3 never-updated Levittown houses where the taxes on each are over $8K. That is INSANE. You buy that house and blow it out and you're looking at $15K in taxes.
Status:
"Let this year be over..."
(set 20 days ago)
Location: Where my bills arrive
19,219 posts, read 17,085,392 times
Reputation: 15538
Just an observation; after getting up to date on the latest posts I have finally realized that educators appear to be the only group that is consistantly complaining because of career expenses associated with their chosen profession. I don't ever recall reading a "transit worker" complaining about his/her travel costs or the needed study products just to get selected for advancement. People choose their profession for whatever reason and should expect resonable compensation for that job that said no job is going to pay every facet and cost including continuing education requirements.
People who feel that they are expected to perform beyond what they feel is resonable change careers. Younger people in college now be real on what you can expect or you will be severly disapointed...
Originally Posted by Quick Commenter Good point, I responded to someone who said their district had given all teachers a 14% raise over the last 2 years and that their teachers contributed 0% for health insurance. That , if true, is the opposite of the district I live in (2 years of real pay freezes and 30% insurance contribution). Another argument for consolidation or at least school board/suprintendent competency. Also, I don't think all the posters are aware of the swollen administrative ranks in most school districts and still think there are just a handful of administrators in the districts and therefore don't realize what a colossal waste of money is involved. Some of the larger districts have upwards of 50 administrators. Some have begun to pare this down - especially the central office administrators.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongoose65
I posted clearly about administrators salaries and how the teacher's salaries drive those up.
I also posted that you mistook my post as 14% raises when it's 7% (3.5+3.5=7).
Guess you didn't read any of that.
I thought you wrote : “Teachers in my district have NOT taken any freezes and are still getting 7% raises (3.5 step, 3.5 union).” That would be 14% over the last two years or am I wrong????
On another point it is an open secret that teachers who cannot cut it in the classroom move to the administrative ranks in order to remain in the TRS (Teachers Retirement System). I would not hang my hat on their competency. As a matter of fact, folks who are aware of that realize why our numerous district superintendents are a rather sorry lot. Because of tenure and the cumbersome due process (tenure) system the easiest way for a principal to get rid of a stinko tenured teacher is to recommend them as an administrator in another district. I looked into this after noticing the two worst teachers my children had actually became administrators in other districts. Previous to that I had assumed administrative hirings were earned promotions by the sharpest teachers. Apparently this practice is referred to as 'passing the trash' or 'the dance of the lemons". The administrators then ususally hopskotch from district to district hoping to wind up as highly paid superintendents.
Finally, the savings in just one eliminated administrator postion (say at 190K) repeats each and every year the position remains unfilled. So in five years, for example, that is 900K plus benefits, plus all the raises he/ she would have accrued plus the support staff (and their raises) each central office administrator tends to gather (plus all the bad decisons never made, of course).
Last edited by Quick Commenter; 10-13-2012 at 10:19 AM..
I posted clearly about administrators salaries and how the teacher's salaries drive those up.
I also posted that you mistook my post as 14% raises when it's 7% (3.5+3.5=7).
Guess you didn't read any of that.
One more time for those in the cheap seats:
KG Teacher @ $125k: Works 7+hrs, 182 days, tenure, doesn't grade many papers, full benefits.
Administrator: @ $197k (avg in my district): Works long hrs, manages 100's, works 12 months, ugly political quagmire of a job dealing with parents, school board, union, auditors, lawyers, etc.
MOST admins come from the teaching ranks (due to NYSED cert requirements).
MOST teachers would not give up their gig to become an admin. The ones that do usually do it late in their career when the home nest is empty and they have the time to put in. At that point it is worth doing 5+ years and doubling that pay and resulting pension.
Summary: Teachers EASY to replace. Admins much HARDER to replace. If a KG teacher makes $125k OF COURSE an admin will make upwards of $250k. Is it reasonable? Not in a reasonable situation, but a KG teacher making $125k is NOT reasonable. THIS IS WHERE THE BARGAINING STARTS on contracts. That is why we are already so messed up going forward.
One mo' time:
Does it make sense to cut a $250k admin position (that deals with all of the above) to save $250k OR
cut 300 teachers by $1k each ($125k to 124k) with little to no pain for a savings of $300k PLUS saving the potential jobs of their union brothers and sisters?! Union says..."hell no."
In the REAL WORLD, it's a no brainer.
I'm so sick of everyone making this out to be a witch-hunt against the poor poor elementary teacher making great money for LI, Dubai, Switzerland, Mars, or any other part of the known universe. It's simple economics and market forces. The union was DESIGNED to protect against those IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR!!! Teachers are not gluing shoes and getting paid in rice. THey are not working 15hrs in coal mines. They do a vital and important job that has historically paid near the middle to top of median income and that is fine. It now pays FAR ABOVE THE MEDIAN INCOME IN SALARY AND BENEFITS. It has become public sector welfare and taxpayer rape on LI. Same with the police.
Anyone NOT at the trough knows it. Everyone at the trough knows it too. Some are smart enough to be thankful and keep their yaps shut. Others seem to have to play victim and defend the idiocy at every turn. Of course they are so defensive. They know they have a bonanza and don't want to lose any of it. They also know it's UNSUSTAINABLE but they don't care (Ed. Note: I probably wouldn't either, take that $ and run, baby).
School board votes are like changing seats on the Titanic. We're still all going down. Anyone catch the thread on the school tax levies?! I voted for 2%....got taxed 9.4%. Others got hit worse. Between the school budget and Nassau's moronic assessment debacle, the taxpayer continues to take it in the hind end.
How long will the tax base decline and contractual benefits climb before the system crumbles?! I hope it's soon!!
In reply to what you said:
It's not that I think teachers have the hardest job or the bad ones deserve a high salary. What I'm trying to say is that I don't have a problem with LI teachers' salaries because in order to live in LI these days you need to make an income of $100K+. With our without school tax, the COL is still astronomical on LI. I know the Census Bureau stats say the median income is below $100K but that doesn't mean the average/median income is appropriate in relative to the COL.
The biggest problem with LI is that most jobs these days don't pay relative to the COL, unlike other expensive metro areas..NoVA has a lot more higher paying jobs because of the abundance of well-paid federal gov't jobs in DC now, and SF Bay Area has a lot more higher paying jobs because of the Silicon Valley and wealthy IT industry presence. That is why I mentioned CEO salaries in a few posts. There is no excuse for a big company in the NY metro area not to pay their experienced employees a six figure salary when the CEO is potentially making millions. As for small business, when it comes to salaries and finance I blame that on NY state unfriendly business policies. Most retail jobs have and are never going to make as much money as a teacher. Believe me I don't like the idea that there are metro areas now where you need to make six figures in order to be middle class, but it's happening.
I do think the school tax is wack, and I think the rest of the property taxes on LI and all of NYS could be lowered. But I think the bigger problem is that not enough private sector jobs pay relative to the COL on LI.
I do believe administrator salaries should be capped, and that pensions need to be gone because it's unsustainable - but I think that'll change soon because NYS government is thinking of removing pensions for the new tier of workers hired.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LardYmike50 Teachers can't save up and buy a house making $80,000 with minimum retirement funding, summers off, and no commuting costs?
How dare we expect teachers to save up to buy a house.
Not to nitpick but do you still think teachers live in the closets in the back of their classrooms? I have heard that some actually commute to work.
And you are talking GROSS 80K ...not so easy to live here on Long Island taking home 50K while saving to purchase a home.
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
No, most teachers commute to work by car and thus have the expense of car, gas, and insurance. Why would they "spend $250 for a lirr train ticket and another $80+ on subways per month" on top of that to commute to work when they have already arrived by car? I just realized you think the word 'commute' means to travel by mass transit. Wrong. Who is out of touch pal?
I would agree that with a 50K net (a middle class net here on Long Island) one can rent, own an auto, and pay all the other costs of living in a very high COL area and gradually save enough over time for a down payment on a home on Long Island .... which has some of the highest priced housing BTW in the nation. No disagreement there. As I indicated above.
you are out of touch. Do you not think those of us who take mass transit (lirr + subway) also have a car? Most of us would live to only have the expense of a car. That's almost $10k gross difference.
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