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Status:
"Let this year be over..."
(set 21 days ago)
Location: Where my bills arrive
19,219 posts, read 17,088,442 times
Reputation: 15538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeygorilla
The OP's point was that in many states with low taxes, it doesn't seem like the property taxes are enough to cover the education cost that is spent by the state per pupil (look up what it costs per year to educate a student in your state & compare to what the average household pays in property taxes). Granted not every household has school age kids, but some households have 2 or 3 (or more) kids...
In other words, in most states (even low tax states) the state spends at least $8,000 per student per year...but it seems like many households are paying far less than that in taxes. How do the taxes cover education spending? And how is there any money left over for everything else that taxes need to pay for?? Or are there really that many households without school age kids to make up for the difference?? Or maybe business are taxed higher? Or the income tax is higher? The money has to come from somewhere.
Again our costs to educate are lower because we are not being choked to death by education and other unions. Yes the state contributes so many dollars towards education but so does the county, we are a county wide school district. You need to realize how many layers of government are in a typical NY community, they all have their hand out.
Status:
"Let this year be over..."
(set 21 days ago)
Location: Where my bills arrive
19,219 posts, read 17,088,442 times
Reputation: 15538
Quote:
Originally Posted by grilba
I have experienced "someplace else" numerous "someplace else's" I am not impressed at all. My friends who have moved have had the same experiences. The schools suck unless you are willing to pay for an upper middle class area. Many other places have a huge discrepancy between the "haves" and the "have nots"
I can't answer why your experience with the schools was bad, I have no idea where you were living. Maybe it was bad I know of places I wouldn't want to live or have had my kids in school but that said I automatically wouldn't want them in NY either.
Based on numerous post on this board communities that are viewed as "below upper middle class" on LI as Zulu400 (Post #57) pointed out seem to have "schools that suck" also. Disparities between "haves and have not's" are argued on a block by block basis on this board something you don't read about elsewhere.
My original answer was to your question how other areas pay for schools, they do quite well and the citizens are not bled dry in the process....
In short - if anything has to be taken with a grain of salt, it has to be the various "state wide stats about education".
A simple exercise....
Certain things to be considered before you read what I have to say...
1. You accept the US News result as is for all states. What that means is that you accept that if a school from somewhere south is ranked above a Long Island school, then it "IS" actually better.
2. We are going to consider only Public Schools (open enrollment).
3. Students from all states do get into the Top colleges in the US. This is a fact.
4. Median housing sale prices are a good indication of cost of living and affordability and if housing costs the same you can assume that LI taxes are more than "somewhere else" (unless that somewhere is in a state that starts with CA), So I am ignoring CA.
5. If you blindly consider LI to be the best and are are not open to opinions, save your time and skip the rest of this post.
Now, onto the theory....
Since the OP mentioned Top 500, we start from the bottom,
#486 = Floral Park, NY.
Median house = $463K (T=Trulia), $500K (Z=Zillow)... move up the list to look at other cities not on LI....
#484 = Avon Lake, OH
Median house = $255K (T), $192K (Z)
#483 = McKinney, TX
$198K(Z)
#482 = Phoenix, AZ
$165K (T) $160K (Z)
#481 = Palm Harbor, FL
$170K (T), $179K (Z)
.
.
.
. so on till you hit another excellent LI school and then the comparison price gets reset.
#412 = Dix Hills, NY
$515K (T), $652 (Z)
#411 = Sugar Land, TX
$250K-$300K
#409 = Cape Elizabeth, ME (Not South)
$320K
#408 = Colorado Springs, CO
$195K
.
.
.
.... and so on...
I have also ignored places in NY like Williamsville (near Buffalo) that is outside Long Island because we are mostly proud of LI schools.
Basically what I'm saying is that there are excellent schools all over the country (outside LI).
LI schools are excellent, there is no doubt, but they are not value for money.
If you choose to live on LI in a school that ranks #500 in the country, it means that you could live elsewhere outside LI where your kids can go to a better school.
This is purely a statistical exercise, it will never replace the feelings/emotions of staying close to family especially parents (its priceless). But its also not fair to not acknowledge what the analysis points to.
If someone does move, its hard to assume that they will move from LI with kids and not think of moving to the same (if not better) school district.
And that is why the state wide results that people publish here about how as a state NY or CA ranks so high really does not matter.
As the PP said, Schools like Jericho, Manhasset are awesome, but does your kid go there ? Too bad....
Now where is that "grain of salt" ?
First, I'm not so sure that the US News rankings are the best way to compare schools nationwide. I know for Long Island they don't accurately rank the top schools and many top schools go unranked due to mysterious reasons which definitely skews the results. The one good thing about it is that it adjust for socioeconomic factors so it gives very diverse schools a fair shot, but that's it.
Second, housing prices aren't high on LI just because of the schools. Obviously less expensive areas in the country have good schools too. Houses on LI are expensive because it's a desirable area for a multitude of reasons. I know if money were no object many, many people would pick the NY area to live but I don't know if many people who would say the same thing about places like NC. The number one reason people move there is to save money.
Finally, don't underestimate the positive influence that being in a high-energy, competitive, cultural area like NY has on kids. That's something that doesn't get reflected in school rankings but it does show up in the opportunities, connections, drive, etc that people have beyond college. I'm sure the adults moving to the south will be fine because they grew up with a NY sensibility- it's a part of them. But I'm not so sure about the kids. I guess time will tell...
Finally, don't underestimate the positive influence that being in a high-energy, competitive, cultural area like NY has on kids. That's something that doesn't get reflected in school rankings but it does show up in the opportunities, connections, drive, etc that people have beyond college. I'm sure the adults moving to the south will be fine because they grew up with a NY sensibility- it's a part of them. But I'm not so sure about the kids. I guess time will tell...
My kids will have a global perspective in all the global excursions they will take every year since we are saving thousands of dollars every year, not handing it over to the Long Island teacher unions.
My kids will have a global perspective in all the global excursions they will take every year since we are saving thousands of dollars every year, not handing it over to the Long Island teacher unions.
You probably mentioned it before, but where did you move to, and how much are your school taxes? Sorry to have you repeat yourself.
You probably mentioned it before, but where did you move to, and how much are your school taxes? Sorry to have you repeat yourself.
Bought a small starter home in the outskirts of Pittsburgh for just over 100K. Property taxes run me $1600 a year. The school district is in the top 50 in the state and this municipality has one of the lowest crime rates in the state of Pennsylvania. Everyone talks about North Carolina, but I found North Carolina to be too pricey and culturally very different.
My kids will have a global perspective in all the global excursions they will take every year since we are saving thousands of dollars every year, not handing it over to the Long Island teacher unions.
The more posts you make, the more outlandish your inferences about us become. Not everyone is struggling here and can't do what you do over there. Even if people are paying a big portion to unions.
If you're just talking about yourself, that's fine. But you know the above can be read in more ways than one.
First, I'm not so sure that the US News rankings are the best way to compare schools nationwide. I know for Long Island they don't accurately rank the top schools and many top schools go unranked due to mysterious reasons which definitely skews the results. The one good thing about it is that it adjust for socioeconomic factors so it gives very diverse schools a fair shot, but that's it.
Second, housing prices aren't high on LI just because of the schools. Obviously less expensive areas in the country have good schools too. Houses on LI are expensive because it's a desirable area for a multitude of reasons. I know if money were no object many, many people would pick the NY area to live but I don't know if many people who would say the same thing about places like NC. The number one reason people move there is to save money.
Finally, don't underestimate the positive influence that being in a high-energy, competitive, cultural area like NY has on kids. That's something that doesn't get reflected in school rankings but it does show up in the opportunities, connections, drive, etc that people have beyond college. I'm sure the adults moving to the south will be fine because they grew up with a NY sensibility- it's a part of them. But I'm not so sure about the kids. I guess time will tell...
(First) We were working with the list from OP, but you can provide me any such ranking list and I am sure what I did would still hold.
(Second) I might (note... might) pick NY too if I were a billionaire (money were no object), but you are really excluding the people who these lists are for, I seriously doubt a billionaire is looking at your post here and nodding their head in approval. And saving money is not a bad thing, if you can save more money without compromising your lifestyle (maybe improving it even), then its a no brainer.
(Finally) You are correct about opportunities and I am glad you mentioned "beyond college". If a kid can get into a top college they can take advantage of all that regardless of where their parents live. Now to get into a top college you need to not only get into a top school, but have $$$ left over for extra help, so I think we have come a full circle. I am not sure if the same kid from a #1000 ranked LI school and a #300 ranked outside LI school have the same odds in getting into the top colleges just by living here (the key being same student). I am sure the company they keep will be drastically different too. And I am a strong believer that the teachers do not make a school look good (anywhere).
NY Sensibility ? I do concede the fact that living in NYC (much less Nassau, and to a even lesser extent Suffolk) does create a different mindset, whether it be because of the fast pace of life or opportunities available, but then you have to live in the city to actually make so much of a difference so as to make a point out of it imo. Living in the boondocks probably will not cut it, most people from suffolk are already thinking about the return LIRR trip on their way into the city (satire !! yeah ).
My kids will have a global perspective in all the global excursions they will take every year since we are saving thousands of dollars every year, not handing it over to the Long Island teacher unions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rh71
The more posts you make, the more outlandish your inferences about us become. Not everyone is struggling here and can't do what you do over there. Even if people are paying a big portion to unions.
If you're just talking about yourself, that's fine. But you know the above can be read in more ways than one.
Hi Rh,
I think there is a bit of truth in what both of you are saying - at different ends.
It has everything to do with affordability as there has been so much documentation about how wealthy school districts produce the smartest students. If you take Jericho or Syosset on LI for example, do you think the parents do not get extra help academically for their kids even though they go to the seemingly best schools ? The top schools imo provide more facilities that a bright student can take advantage of more than other schools and become brighter, but its not going to make a dumb student (yeah his dad got some serious $$$$) bright, maybe a tad less dumber. I personally think the parents who over extend (poor kids in a rich town) to get into the top schools are doing a disservice to their kids, because its more about how much money you can spend on extra help and other activities thats going to get your kid ahead. Nothing wrong in a reasonable upgrade though.
If one cannot afford to get extra help on LI, but can do that by moving out, then I would say his child is already doing better. So I think there is a threshold here that I'm talking about... the middle class (or whoever is what you call struggling) will probably benefit from a lower cost of living, but as you move up towards the well to do... the benefit of moving becomes very marginal. So as you say, lots of people here are doing good (under unions , or not), and they think there is no reason for them to move. I still think its not good financial sense, or maybe tied to their profession or whatever, but you can live with that because they are living comfortably.
What is affordable is a very subjective thing, hence the tons of threads on housing and schools on CD and everywhere else.
Bought a small starter home in the outskirts of Pittsburgh for just over 100K. Property taxes run me $1600 a year. The school district is in the top 50 in the state and this municipality has one of the lowest crime rates in the state of Pennsylvania. Everyone talks about North Carolina, but I found North Carolina to be too pricey and culturally very different.
Are your school taxes part of the $1600 property tax?
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